US, Backers Responsible Before God on Iraq - Vatican

Reuters | 3/18/03

[Cap'n Crunch]

I agree that it is much more difficult with a country like China. What I cannot understand is why we keep building them up monetarily and militarily.

Some day they are going to take Taiwan, it will be interesting to see what we do when that happens.

[Jorge]

I think I'll take my chances that God is in favor of what George is doing, more than he's in favor of Saddam.

As anyone with common sense would.

The idea that we are supposed to fear fighting evil in this world because some pious hypocritical gas bag pronounces upside-down judgements...and we are supposed believe he is speaking for God, is just laughable.

[Kay Soze]

"The Vatican said on Tuesday countries that decide to wage war on Iraq without a global consensus must take responsibility before God and history -- making clear the Pope would not endorse their actions."

I cannot understand this statement.

Does the Pope still really believe that God answers to global consent?

I know that’s was the position with respect to the axis during WW2 but given the all the hard work at revising history is the Vatican prepared to make this mistake again?

[Cvengr]

You're correct,..it got too cumbersome.

Essentially I was shooting to take the same quote from the Pope, and observe the contrapositive.

His argument observes the nature of a forced option,...i.e. a condition where an agent is responsible not only for their action but also their inaction. Accordingly, lack of decision, ...then forms in and of itself a moral decision.

In this case, the Pope stresses the importance of insuring ALL opportunities have been exhausted for peace with an antagonist.

The dual to the consequence involves numerous innocent bystanders,...namely victims of WMDs if WMD are flippantly deployed.

The dual of the argument then focuses more on the relevance of Hussein and evaluating whether he poses a more substantial threat if afforded an opportunity than a status quo without such an opportunity to use WMD.

I then applied three criterion which should be of common interest amongst all Christians.

1) The great Commision and its promotion.
2) The blessing of Israel or any people of God.
3) If already afforded an open door to God, has there been demonstrable testimony of complete and intentional rebellion to God's will by one's potential enemy? (There does exist a class of people who will spend eternity in Hell. We won't decide who they are, but we should work to spread the Word to those who will go to Heaven, even if they are sinners now. Some sinners, though will remain rebellious and unrepentant. No need to continue to waste time on those.)

[Cvengr]

Good point. Nothing wrong with Christians admonishing a fellow Christian and holding him to a higher criterion of excellence or reminding Bush of the import of the situation.

One thing which seems to be a bit falsely implied, is the bit on international consensus.

I believe the recent tally is about 30 nations with the US and 20 not necessarily with Iraq, but simply not wanting to aggress. A consensus still exists for the US.

Additionally, what we seem to be observing is a coordinated attack by socialists from various power structures defending a fellow socialist power.

Spiritually, I suspect the term 'socialist', might be better associated or substituted by 'fallen or deceiving spirit'. Too bad the Vatican couldn't shed a bit more light in that domain. (or perhaps they have infamously and unwittingly)

[Cvengr]

God created nations. Satan did not create the multiplicity of tongues at the Tower of Babel.

Satan may have helped create a counterfeit system of government associated with the UN, with a focus on good human works independent of God, and therefore a counterfeit system to His Divine righteousness.

I'll run through a few notes on Nations as a divine institution when I get a chance.

Is there a particular point regarding government which you believe is satanic?

[tracer]

No slam intended, BTW. I found your topic interesting and wanted to comprehend that which was being said. Probably says more about my ADD than anything. Thanks for 'splaining, and all the best....

[Kay Soze]

American Bishop Bars Faithful from War Effort

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/868245/posts

Bishop John Michael Botean

Bishop Botean acknowledged that the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2309) identifies public authorities as the final judges of whether military action is justified. But he argued that "the nation-state is never the final arbiter or authority for the Catholic of what is moral." An unjust law or order should not be obeyed, he observed.

And the Pope says

The Vatican said Tuesday that countries which decided to wage war on Iraq without the consensus of the international community were assuming great responsibility before God and history.

Who is right?

[Cvengr]

Off the top of my head (which is a poor excuse for mediocrity), I look at Moses, the passing of the Law to Moses from God. Moses then implementing a divine institution of the nation. Later, Moses was advised to create a system of lower courts to adjudicate lessor issues and man made laws were also established.

We now have man-made laws and God-made laws or Divine laws.

Four divine institutions come to mind.
1) The self or self-determination of the soul. Volition.
2) Marriage with man as the head (man and wife to be pedantic).
3) The family with relationships between family members.
4) The nation as observed in Israel.

[Cvengr]

Consider Lot and the fall of Sodom & Gommorrah. An appeal was made, essentially bartering with God for the lives of the people of the city,..for the want of 50 righteous men, wouldn't the city be spared?...for 5 men would he city be spared?...

God not only judges individually, He also judges by groups. Numerous examples of Israel as a nation being disciplined as a group for some failing to follow His will.

He also will look for client nations to represent His will. Historically there are many indicators of national decline resulting in failure, discipline and harsh punishment by God. In many of these situations, homosexuality and sexual immorality is one such indicator of impending doom.

[doug from upland]

As a Catholic, this really angers me. It seems that my church has a very serious problem with pedophile priests as well as the ability to distinguish good from evil. That second one should be easy for the church.

[Erasmus]

>>Chruch

>ruh-roh !
>a hugh, series transposition !
>another legend in the making ??
>lol

Many people use religion as a chruch.

[Cvengr]

US in WWII, several hundred other examples,..go do your own homework. Even if provided on a silver platter, you won't accept it anyway. The issue isn't an academic debate, it's study of Scripture and a personal relationship with Him and how He provides for us on many levels.
Return to Him so He may return to you. God bless.