Iraq's Rebuke to the NRA

Slate.com ^ | 03/14/2003 | Timothy Noah

[Pitchfork]

In the March 11 New York Times, Neil MacFarquhar notes in passing, "Most Iraqi households own at least one gun." This comes as a shock to those of us who've been hearing for years from the gun lobby that widespread firearms ownership is necessary to prevent the United States from becoming a police state. Here, via the National Rifle Association's Web site, is Bill Pryor, attorney general of Alabama, decrying the "war on guns": "In a republic that promotes a free society, as opposed to a police state, one of the basic organizing principles is that individuals have a right of self-defense and a right to acquire the means for that defense." The basic Jeffersonian idea is that you never know when you'll need to organize a militia against your government. In director John Milius' camp Cold War classic Red Dawn, Russians and Nicaraguan commies take over the United States in part by throwing gun owners in jail. In one memorable scene, the camera pans from a bumper sticker that says "You'll Take My Gun Away When You Pry It From My Cold, Dead Fingers" to a Russian soldier prying a gun from the car owner's … you get the idea.

The obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is how Iraq got to be, and remains, one of the world's most repressive police states when just about everyone is packing heat. Chatterbox invites gun advocates (and Iraq experts) to e-mail (to chatterbox@slate.com) plausible reasons. The best of these will be examined in a follow-up item.

[Woahhs]

Oh...magazines too. They just about lined the walls with magazines.

What sort?

The sort you put up in-leu of firearms that are effective past fifty yards.

[Torie]

Lots of assertions there. As for being afraid of the armed citizen, it depends who is armed, and where, and where I am. My fears, or public policy views, have nothing to do with Constitutional interpretation. As a public policy matter, I have reluctantly concluded, that at this point in time in our history, concealed carry is the way to go. An armed society is a polite society, sort of like the wild West. Maybe we will evolve to a higher state someday, but not in my lifetime, and probably not ever.

I hope that helps.

[Teacher317]

Well, read post 238 where I show how we can avoid the entire colonial discussion...

but the fact remains that colonial America's farmers were up against a professional army (and were getting their butt's kicked all over the continent) and still eventually won, while you asserted that it couldn't happen.

[Rightwing Conspiratr1]

Neil MacFarquhar notes in passing, "Most Iraqi households own at least one gun."

The entire argument is built on a false premise.

From Wash Post

"The large-scale distribution of weapons began during the war with Iran, when the government gave Iraqi-made AK-47s to decommissioned soldiers, members of the ruling Baath Party and tribal leaders. But it has dramatically escalated in recent months. Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz said last month that officials had handed out "hundreds of thousands of weapons" since the Bush administration began deploying additional forces to the Persian Gulf.

One group largely left out of the gun distribution has been Shiite Muslims, who make up about 55 percent of the population but whose allegiance has been questioned by Hussein and other top leaders, who are predominantly Sunni Muslims. In 1991, after the Persian Gulf War, Shiites rebelled against government forces in several southern cities. Today, some Shiites still are quietly loyal to a large opposition group based in Iran, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, whose leader has vowed to send fighters into Iraq to oppose Hussein if U.S. forces invade. "

First the information is sourced from the Iraqi government.
Secondly, it's a safe bet to assume that only loyal Baath Party members have guns.

[EternalVigilance]

You're the kind of liberal we conservatives can love...one who knows they have been beat! ;-)

Stay around here long enough, Torie, and you might even become a 'moderate'...LOL

[right way right]

WE don't need guns to protect us from our own government.

This is because we have always had guns.

[DannyTN]

In response to post 39.

Your #2 Iraqi's having guns is false if by far the most likely answer.

If they did, then their failure to use them would count as a character flaw and you're back to #1. It would not change our position.

#3, England used to be the example instead of Canada, but now Crime in England is high. I guess it's fallen off the list. There are numerous examples of individual communities where guns are restricted and crime soars and where guns are encouraged and crime drops, often dramatically.

#4 Ok, you are a moron who teaches American Government. And if I pull my 6 year old daughter out of public schools, teachers like you will be just one of the many reasons. By the way she entered kindergarden with an IQ of 146 and reading at almost a third grade level.
The schools taught her that Islam was good and that they gave money to the poor on Ramadan. I taught her that Islam also taught people to strap bombs to their chest and blow themselves up to kill women and children especially Jews and Christians. And that it's happening on a daily basis in Israel. Her mouth fell open.
But when I explained how false religions like Islam got started things clicked and she now understands how deceptive they can be.

#5 Well how much the Feds can do before they cross that constitutional line unfortunately is up for interpretation by a judicuary that all too often believes in a "living constitution" that can be rewritten to their liking. So just because the courts haven't shot down some of the laws, doesn't mean some of our founders are doing RPM's in their graves.

And as for your lesson. Yes, we take the constitution and our rights seriously.

[Long Cut]

Post # 237. No more needs be said.

I wish people who advocate this nonsense would at least TRY to remember that 1. It has been tried before, to even GREATER extent, in Britain and Australia, and; 2. THEIR CRIME RATES ROSE DRASTICALLY!!!

Like most communists, however, they seem to think it will work, if only it is tried by the RIGHT people. Oh, and enforced more strictly.

[meyer]

The source is Slate.com. Not exactly the pillar of truth.

The leftist media can't even come to grips that there are WMD in Iraq, but they purport to know that most households have guns. Horsehockey.

[groanup]

"A registration system could--in decades--reduce the availability of guns"

Impossible. Hell, I can MAKE a gun and the ammunition to use it.

[Pitchfork]

Considering that Shiia cleric in southern Iraq have just issued a fatwa against US forces, Saddam may want to consider making weapons available to them.

[jwalsh07]

Here's your problem in a nutshell:

You're selling the greater good theory on a website dedicated to individual liberty and inalienable rights.

You may as well be a French wine salesperson hawking their goods at the local VFW.

[lawdog]

Government "gun lists" solve very few if ANY crimes. Gun registration eventually leads to confiscation- it's the nature of power. Empire builders and bureaucrats always seek to 1. Protect the empire and 2. Grow the empire.

[jwalsh07]

I am familiar with Mr Wills and I'm not buying what he's selling. According to Tribe, no friend of the right, it doesn't obtain.

I will, however, take a look at his work since forewarned is forearmed.

[tpaine]

Your gun control ideas are quite familiar:


Communitarians, Neorepublicans, and Guns: Assessing the Case for Firearms Prohibition
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/865120/posts

[groanup]

"You might want to recall when the British Empire reached its peak! It was in the mid-1800's not the late 1700s"

I think the point you are trying to make here is that the colonies defeated a weak Britain. How absurd. Just when did the colonies achieve their peak power?

[Teacher317]

Ooh, another quick thought on the civilians vs modern army idea: read up on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in WWII. A handful of starving Polish Jews held off a division of Nazis for three weeks... when the entire nation of Poland fell in one week (stories of Polish horse-mounted cavalry taking on Nazi tanks are also some inspiring-yet-depressing reading).

[jwalsh07]

Considering that Shiia cleric in southern Iraq have just issued a fatwa against US forces

Oh no, another fatwa issued by another cleric in another nest of jihadists.

What is one to do?

[Torie]

Alas, Tribe's analysis is not available on the internet. I have searched for it. Wills is really quite excellent. I savor that from whatever side it comes from. But that is just me.

[Teacher317]

It's 2003, and we haven't peaked yet! ;^)