Iraq's Rebuke to the NRA

Slate.com ^ | 03/14/2003 | Timothy Noah

[Pitchfork]

In the March 11 New York Times, Neil MacFarquhar notes in passing, "Most Iraqi households own at least one gun." This comes as a shock to those of us who've been hearing for years from the gun lobby that widespread firearms ownership is necessary to prevent the United States from becoming a police state. Here, via the National Rifle Association's Web site, is Bill Pryor, attorney general of Alabama, decrying the "war on guns": "In a republic that promotes a free society, as opposed to a police state, one of the basic organizing principles is that individuals have a right of self-defense and a right to acquire the means for that defense." The basic Jeffersonian idea is that you never know when you'll need to organize a militia against your government. In director John Milius' camp Cold War classic Red Dawn, Russians and Nicaraguan commies take over the United States in part by throwing gun owners in jail. In one memorable scene, the camera pans from a bumper sticker that says "You'll Take My Gun Away When You Pry It From My Cold, Dead Fingers" to a Russian soldier prying a gun from the car owner's … you get the idea.

The obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is how Iraq got to be, and remains, one of the world's most repressive police states when just about everyone is packing heat. Chatterbox invites gun advocates (and Iraq experts) to e-mail (to chatterbox@slate.com) plausible reasons. The best of these will be examined in a follow-up item.

[TXnMA]

Oh...magazines too. They just about lined the walls with magazines.

What sort?

Probably not the Playboy sort... .

[Jhoffa_]

No bad words, porno pictures.. logical (if incorrect) arguments..

You're a world class disrupter Pitch..

[Pitchfork]

Well, I hoped to have a debate regading the veracity--in light of evidence--that an armed citizenry could protect its liberty from a determined tyrant. It seems in the face of a modern army that it could not (only the most obstinant will refute this point).

I had further hoped to consider whether 1) this revelation undermined the argument against registration 2) gun tracking in the interest of law enforcement and crime prevention might be defeted by a reasoned argument. To my mind it has not.

Sadly this has degenerated into a 2nd ammendment debate where, rather than engage an argument about the societal benefits of guns, the pro side simply assert a right to close the debate.

I wanted to see how long it would take: Less than 100 posts!
Congratulations to you open minded freepers!

[Jhoffa_]

It seems in the face of a modern army that it could not (only the most obstinant will refute this point).

If you look at a Modern day Army as a "thing" yes, there's no chance at all.. They will mop the floor with us.

However, if you look at the army as a collection of people then you are expecting them to shoot their mothers and kick in their own doors.

I don't think they will do that. And in such a conflict, small arms might just prove to be the edge.

[jeremiah]

How is this known?
Is there some study that proves this assertion that Iraq has the majority of citizens with weaponry? Frankly, I think this is a load of bull, and falls flat unless it can be proven.

[EternalVigilance]

None of these questions has a diffinitive answer.

Only one 'f' in 'definitive', too.

My eight-year-old's spelling is better than Pitchfork's as well.

NEA teachers: the Left's antidote for critical thinking skills.

[Pitchfork]

I see you've decided to abandon any attempt to refute my argument and instead chosen to critique my typo-ridden spelling. That is truely the last refuge of the simple-minded. Better just call me a communist and be done with it.

[EternalVigilance]

Congratulations to you open minded freepers!

That's the problem with the Left...they left their minds wide open, and their brains leaked out.

[EternalVigilance]

Okay. You're a communist.

[Dan from Michigan]

You never did address Michigan's 'benefit' of gun registration, nor Strathclyde.

I'll give you a history lesson. Michigan's old gun laws go back to the 1920's. It was the Ku Klux Klan that lobbied for them. Dr. Ossian Sweet was a black man that moved in a white middle class area of Detroit. He was not wanted there, and his life was threatened. His brother used a gun to defend his family. He was taken to court and found not guilty.

The Klan pushed for gun laws and lobbied Lansing. Being the 1920's, they didn't want none of 'them' with guns.

[facedown]

Huh?

[Dan from Michigan]

I'd rather call you a yahoo.....

[EternalVigilance]

So, which of the other rights delineated in the Bill of Rights are 'collective' rights, professor?

Free speech?

Assembly?

Religious liberty?

[Pitchfork]

You are certainly justified in questioning the accuracy of the evidence. I wonder, if we were to accept the article's findings as true (for the sake of argument) if that would falsify the proposition that an armed citizenry is a necessary or sufficient condition for the perpetuation of democracy. I think it would. But no one has sought to engage that point--they'd rather attack the messenger and turn this into an Miller, Emerson, federalist cut-and-paste from the Guncit.com website fest!

[Jhoffa_]

I wonder, if we were to accept the article's findings as true (for the sake of argument) if that would falsify the proposition that an armed citizenry is a necessary or sufficient condition for the perpetuation of democracy.

Why bother? It's irrelevant with regard to the constitution and the limit of federal power.

Your case is blown either way..

[EternalVigilance]

Here, in case you've never read them:


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[EternalVigilance]

That is a very good compendium of critical quotes. Thank you. In fact, it's so good, I think it bears repeating:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater … confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution (1776).

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution Proposed BV the Late Convention (1787).

"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense or by partial orders of towns...is a dissolution of the government." John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-1788).

"Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison.

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms …To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms . . . " Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From the Federal Farmer 53 (1788).

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).

"…The said Constitution be never construed …to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams, during Massachusetts's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788)

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." --James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46


92 posted on 03/14/2003 9:01 PM CST by Travis McGee

[Pitchfork]

Why bother?????! That's like asking: Why bother thinking!

You seem not to see that there the two questions are distinct:
1) is an armed citizenry needed to maintain democracy

2) does the US consitution gaurantee the right of individuals to keep and bear arms (regardless of the societal benefits OR damage this might bring)

Both are empirical questions. One is falsifiable by evidence. The other is a matter, mostly, of interpretation guided by belief and is not therefore not subject to falsification.

[Pitchfork]

Gee, it looks like the tenth amendment is a collective right! I guess that must be the only one! Or perhaps not! How could we tell?! Obviously its by flinging quotations at each other!

[mommadooo3]

And, the lesson I've learned:
1. Its easy to rile up you yahoos by posting an anti-gun article. Sadly while your barrage of responses may be intense, the aren't very intelligent. Try harder!.......

UH, sorry. This is NOT yahoo.

IF you teach American govt., HOW do you know you have a solid foundation to work upon, if you haven't mastered the English language? If you miss a comma, or two, you miss a LOT of American govt., American history, and America's Founding Fathers' intent.

OK. Let's suppose you DO teach American government. What IS it that you teach? What is it that the American govt. classes teach about the Constitution? If you teach American govt., and claim that the Constitution only has the 'power' that 'courts' interpret/understand/bestow upon it, then could you PLEASE explain WHY you choose to ignore 'courts' decisions?

As I said before, you are about to receive an education. ARE you intelligent to receive it?
And, based upon YOUR answers, I'd have to say that you believe your 'piece of paper' prevents you from learning or hearing anything that might resemble the truth.