Mask, Gun: Check. Bullets: ....Not So Fast

St. Petersburg Times | March 13, 2003 | Wes Allison

[Mini-14]

"Only the military can be trusted with guns"

[null and void]

Hey a good cook can make a combat tour a whole lot more friendly.

And a BAD cook might need to defend hisself...

[duk]

SARCASTIC???

[scott7278]

"Good point I taught my kids that the gun is always loaded. Even when the slide is back the clip is out and a cleaning rod is in the barrel with the brush in the chamber don't point at anything you don't plan to shoot."

Amen to that! My father taught me the same thing. Now, even years later, my guns are always treated as loaded even though I know they're not. It's just been drilled into my mind. It's unfathomable to me to have a gun pointed anywhere that I don't plan to shoot -- I couldn't do it if I tried.

[tje]

I used to deliver guards to an 'X area' (ammo dump) when I was in the Army. These guys would get issued their M-16 and two magazines. So many of them would immediately slam in the magazine, chamber around and flip it onto full auto.

I do remember the night when one guy fell as they were piling out of the back of my duece an a half and emptied the clip. Fortunately it was straight up and no one was hurt...

[jiggyboy]

Maybe they found out the Navy cooks have weapons?

[Conspiracy Guy]

"my guns are always treated as loaded even though I know they're not", No no no. You can not know that they're not, even though they are not, because you just said they were. I won't even point a piece of pipe at something. When I flip someone off I make sure my middle finger is pointing up. Seriously in early 70's while stationed in Kansas with the USAF SAC I was an instructor in the State Hunter Safety program. The little kids who had to go through the program to get a hunting license usually had dad with them. The kids caught on a lot quicker than dad. Gun safety, target identification, etc are learned behavior that is best passed on by an expert and not some clerk in the Walmart sporting goods dept. I can't believe a soldier in a war zone is issued a weapon without the training to sleep with the damn thing drunk and blindfolded. SAD

[ColdSteelTalon]

This is a stupid article. Rear Echelon (i.e. troops not pulling guard or on the front line) do not normally carry bullets with them. This is standard operating procedure. They carry only their rifles and then go to the armory just before deployment to battle or to guard. When I was in the Army in 1986 the same thing was done.

[300winmag]

But if I had to carry it unloaded everywhere I went for months, when the gun is just pretend, I would fear for my own loss of good habits.

I learned more about safe weapons handling in hunter safety class in the 9th grade, and from my father before that, than I got in Basic in 1970. It's all about "muzzle awareness", and got more training in that from the Michigan State Police, and not the Army.

Part of this problem is that 95% of the troops in the Army will never fire a round outside of the rifle range. Another part of the problem is that the Army spends more time on sensitivity training than safe weapons handling. The USAF is even worse, they aren't even issuing empty weapons to their troops in camp. And ammunition production was basically stopped for several years during the klinton regime, so only the lucky troops got a couple of rounds per year to fire. No firing, no safety training, either.

I have a few suggestions, which I know will be ignored. First, instant court martial for anyone having a negligent discharge, even if you're a general. Second, take away the rifles from all the REMFs and paper pushers, and give them a stainless steel DAO five-shot .38 snubbie. Hell, give one to EVERY troop, and get rid of those damn Berrettas. The elite troops would also get a modern sidearm in 45ACP.

Training on a double-action-only revolver is simple, unless you're a real retard, and shouldn't be in the military in the first place. The object is not to hit a target at 300 meters, but three. The revolver is considered always loaded, and there is no external safety. It's always ready to fire, and everyone knows it. With stainless steel, daily maintenance would be "unload it, blow away all the dust, and reload".

Personally, I'd rather have five shots with a .38 than an empty M16 that I have to lug everywhere, drop, lose, and abuse. And as a real infantryman, having a last-ditch holdout weapon would bring an extra comfort level.

[Doomonyou]

Doesnt this kind of article fall under the "LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS" Category?!?

[HairOfTheDog]

Good tips WinMag....

[Stand Watch Listen]

If you observe unreported troop/ship movements, if you are privy to 'info/data' and post it... that would certainly be classified in the category of "loose lips sink ships. Whereinas this is a published article, readily availble in town, readily available on the internet..most certainly not a secret.

[cajun-jack]

and a "girl" was using it.....as a crowbar....call art bell and borrow his time machine and take them back to fort polk circa mid 1960's for 8 weeks basic and 8 weeks tigerland infantry a.i.t. and then send them back. they'll darn well know what an m-14 is for then and will be more familiar with it than they were their mother's bosom when they were 6 weeks old.

[Doomonyou]

I agree. But where ever this came from, if I was a soldier on the ground in the Middle East, this is the last thing I would want made public.

[HairOfTheDog]

Seems like common sense from here.

If it is more dangerous than worthwhile for them to be walking around with loaded weapons in a protected base, so be it. Don't give them guns.

But don't give them unloaded guns to pretend with and think you are teaching them better gun handling.

[Bob]

But if I had to carry it unloaded everywhere I went for months, when the gun is just pretend, I would fear for my own loss of good habits.

Exactly correct. I think, given enough time with "known-unloaded" guns, any of us would tend to get out of our good habits.

[300winmag]

Exactly correct. I think, given enough time with "known-unloaded" guns, any of us would tend to get out of our good habits.

I think the Marines aren't quite as bad off, since they have the principle of "every Marine a rifleman" (including the women). They spend more time on the range, learning the basics.

If I ran the Army, I'd have a one-week "weapons handling" course in Basic where everyone gets an orange M16 lookalike "air soft" replica that fires plastic pellets. Load it, put on goggles, and spend your entire waking day lugging it around to class, chow, the PX, etc. A negligent discharge would get you recycled to the next training cycle. If the Drill Sergeant catches you doing something stupid, 100 pushups. The first "accident" would teach a good lesson to everyone else.

[snooter55]

"What stops a soldier from carrying an extra bullet (aquired with his own money) or two for self protection "just in case"? "
Barney Fife repoting for duty, Sir !
Snooter ;o)

[sneakypete]

Many infantry platoons carry a heavier M-60 machine gun as well.

I doubt that. Front line units should all have the MAG-58/M-240G by now.

Meanwhile, U.S. troops at Udairi on Wednesday received an unwelcome order: They must now wear "full battle rattle," minus the Kevlar flak vests, whenever they leave the tents.

Sounds like Ft.Bragg.The brass in the 82nd Airborne like playing soldier so much,they insist their soldiers and soldierettes run around wearing their steel pot with the chin strap buckled. I guess the brass thinks this makes them look macho,but it only makes them look silly.

[sneakypete]

What stops a soldier from carrying an extra bullet (aquired with his own money) or two for self protection "just in case"?

What the army calls "shakedown inspections". You line them all up,and search their pockets,their packs,and every possession they have.