The Starship Builders (Speculation on UFO Propulsion methods by Physist)

Stardrive ^ | FR Post 3-15-03 (Article update 1999) | by Kim Burrafato

[boris]

"Any usable warp drive implies the ability for time travel. Insert time travel into the universe and all hell breaks loose, literally. Perhaps among the infinite quantum multiverses we are one where neither warp drive nor time travel ever occurs, or both are impossible."

"If time travel into the past were possible we would be over-run with tourists from the future." I think Hawking said it, or possibly someone earlier.

Time travel into the future is manifestly possible; we are all doing it at a rate of one second per second. Seems dubious that the rate can be accelerated.

--Boris

[boris]

"it's galactically over the top."

I prefer the formulation: "Boris does not suffer fools gladly."

--Boris

[boris]

"But, Von Braun insisted that after the Iraq war planned in 1970ish, we would be called on to fight the evil ET's--something he considered a hideous hoax--his being convinced all the ET's were benign."

I admire the man (died 1977) but some had a different take:

Tom Lehrer:

And what is it that put America in the forefront of the nuclear nations? And what is it that will make it possible to spend 20 billion dollars of your money to put some clown on the moon? Well, it was good old American know-how, that's what. As provided by good old Americans like Dr. Wernher von Braun.

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown.
"Ha, Nazi Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.

You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun.

[Quix]

Nor civil-ly
Nor charitably
Nor patiently
Nor kindly
Nor much at all, really.

Before you pass from this boot camp/planet

you will be shown to have been/be a fool in a list of ways.

Given the likelihood that you'll then reap tons of what you've sown so liberally, it will be interesting to see your attitude ATT.

One serious hazard of a policy of never suffering fools gladly is

one tends to see LOTS of other people as fools beneath one's self.

Another is, said pride contributes to growing blindness and narrowness.

And pride goes before a fall as sure as night follows day.

[Quix]

Cute. Hadn't heard/read that one before.

[Quix]

Given your admiration of Von Braun,

why is it so difficult to believe him?

No one that I know of has challenged that he said what he is reported to have said to his PhD assistant/spokesperson of his last 4 years.

[William Terrell]

What percentage of, say, physics do you figure we know of all there is to know about physics?

[Centurion2000]

bump for later

[boris]

"What percentage of, say, physics do you figure we know of all there is to know about physics?"

Interesting question.

I'd say about 1%.

But the question isn't really relevant to the current discussion.

We would certainly notice if intelligent ETs were crusing the neighborhood; more to the point, they would notice us.

I used to buy Sagans "billions and billions" in concert with the Drake equation, but reading Rare Earth by Peter D. Ward and Donald Brownlee caused me to reconsider my position.

I now believe we may be the only intelligent creatures in our galaxy--if not the universe.

Or perhaps N (where N is the number of intelligent species) is on the order of 10 per galaxy, which makes it very unlikely that we will meet them.

Being Alone imbues everything we do with a horrible portent. Even, say, using the toilet.

Also, it is depressing to think that we are the best the Universe can come up with.

--Boris

[longshadow]

Being Alone imbues everything we do with a horrible portent. Even, say, using the toilet.

Now you've done it; every bowel movement from now until the End of Time will deemed a Cosmic event.

I'm not sure the world is ready for that....

;-)

[PatrickHenry]

Now you've done it; every bowel movement from now until the End of Time will deemed a Cosmic event.

For some of us, each such activity has always been a cosmic event.

As for being the best that the universe has to offer, there are two observations: One, it's far better than discovering that the galaxy has been occupied by brighter species for millions of years, and we're beneath the level of their notice. Two, we're well on the way to deliberately improving ourselves. We may be the best now, but we'll get better. So smile.

[js1138]

Time travel into the future is manifestly possible; we are all doing it at a rate of one second per second. Seems dubious that the rate can be accelerated.

Any round trip taken at speeds close to the speed of light will accelerate your travel into the future, without violating any known physical laws, and without requiring infinite energy.

[William Terrell]

I'd say about 1%. But the question isn't really relevant to the current discussion.

In your prior post, you said, "Hence, he repeated, either we are alone or none of these schemes is feasible." You seemed to take that quote as you own posiion. In a condition of incomplete knowledge, I'd think "either/or" can't be valid, not to mention when we're 99% ignorant.

Being Alone imbues everything we do with a horrible portent. Even, say, using the toilet.

Alone as a individual human beings in respect to other human beings is awful as far as I'm concerned, but being alone as a intelligent lifeform doesn't bother me in the least. I'm right satisfied with the company of my own type of creature. If there are other lifeforms, fine; if there are none, fine.

I don't think we can't make assumptions to the extent that we automatically react to a notion.

[strela]

BUMP for later perusal and to get my head back in the stars where it belongs for a while.

[boris]

"In your prior post, you said, "Hence, he repeated, either we are alone or none of these schemes is feasible." You seemed to take that quote as you own posiion. In a condition of incomplete knowledge, I'd think "either/or" can't be valid, not to mention when we're 99% ignorant."

One not need be aware of Newton's Laws or Kip Thorne's theory of gravity to notice that people who jump over cliffs without parachutes are usually injured. One need not be aware of Newton's Laws to notice that speeding vehicles without brakes usually lead to some sort of disaster.

As in the case of Sherlock Holmes' "dog who did not bark in the night" our failure to observe macroscopic effects of interstellar travel imparts information: either intelligence is exceedingly rare OR none of the schemes advanced by us--or ETs--is feasible.

As Sagan pointed out, intelligent ETs will have cultures 10,000 or a million years in advance of ourselves. This would give them nearly god-like technologies...yet we fail to observe even a single proven instance of alien visitation or even alien travel.

The rest follows by simple logic.

--Boris

[RadioAstronomer]

Swimming pool reactors glow visibly blue by Cherenkov radiation.

I have seen this with my own eyes. On top of a Triga-A bathtub reactor at the Uinversity Of Ill.

[SunkenCiv]

Blast from the past.