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Fears that US will use 'torture lite' on al-Qaida No 3
The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | 03/05/03 | Duncan Campbell

Posted on 03/04/2003 7:29:58 PM PST by Pokey78

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the al-Qaida leader captured in Pakistan over the weekend, was yesterday believed to be under interrogation at a US base in Afghanistan.

The White House denied he was being tortured, although there is speculation that a variety of techniques known in the intelligence community as "torture lite" would be used to get information from him.

Mohammed, who is said to to be the number three in al-Qaida, was arrested on Saturday in Pakistan, in a joint operation by the CIA and Pakistani police. He was initially interrogated in Pakistan but has now been moved.

The US does not comment on individual prisoners held in the wake of September 11, but Pakistani officials said they understood that he was now being held in Afghanistan, reportedly at the Bagram base.

The arrest follows last month's capture in Pakistan of Muhammed Abdel Rahman, a son of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in 1995 of conspiring to blow up the UN offices in New York.

Information provided by Mr Rahman led to the latest arrest, according to a report in the New York Times.

There was also speculation that Ramzi bin al-Shibh, who was arrested in Pakistan last year, had given information about Mohammed under interrogation. The two had been in hiding together in Karachi.

Qari Abdul Wali, a Taliban military commander in hiding near the Afghan town of Spin Boldak, told Reuters that al-Qaida would remain intact despite the arrest.

"The arrest of a few individuals from within al-Qaida's ranks will have no bearing on the organisation's functioning," Mr Wali said. "Representatives of al-Qaida and the Taliban keep their communications going, but that doesn't mean we are likely to snitch on each other."

Interrogators are likely to seek two key pieces of information from Mohammed: plans for attacks on the US or US interests, and the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said in response to questions about the detention of Mohammed: "The standard for any type of interrogation of somebody in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type subject. That is precisely what has been happening and exactly what will happen."

But lawyers for those detained after September 11 believe prisoners held abroad are often subjected to torture.

Randy Hamud, who represents a number of Arabs detained in San Diego, said he believed his clients had been taken to countries where they could be tortured. There have also been reports that police in countries such as Pakistan and Jordan are given prisoners by the US in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

A former member of US navy intelligence said that "torture lite" - sleep deprivation, and placing prisoners in awkward or painful positions for hours at a time - would be used.

The Democratic senator John Rockefeller suggested at the weekend that the US might consider turning over Mohammed to a country that does not ban torture. He told CNN: "I wouldn't take anything off the table where he is concerned, because this is the man who has killed hundreds and hundreds of Americans over the last 10 years."

He had since said that he was not condoning torture.

The secretary of homeland security, Tom Ridge, said Mohammed would have significant information but would be hard to interrogate.

"We know that these individuals are trained and programmed in the craft of evasion. It will be very, very difficult to extricate information from this guy at this time."

There was also speculation that Mohammed would be questioned about the murder last year of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
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To: Viva Le Dissention
what do you mean -- "the whole thread is about this." Are you talking in code or was my question something you don't want to tackle. Here is how it started.

YOU: Now, I know out current president likes to ignore a lot of these really inconvenient things when he wants to execute some people,

ME: Give us examples of those executed where our "current president" ignored really inconvenient things.

Then you respond with "the whole thread is about this." Are you just someone who likes to hear yourself talk so you can impress yourself? You made a charge against the "current president." Let's see examples of those he executed when he "ignored really inconvenient things." It was not rhetorical.

81 posted on 03/04/2003 8:57:21 PM PST by doug from upland (Bill and Hillary's first instinct is survival.....their second is to lie.)
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Do you think that's a mistake or sloppy composition? I think it was deliberate, myself. Citizens have certain rights that non-citizens don't--but due process is guaranteed to everyone.

This very argument has come to dozens of courts, both liberal and conservative, over the past 15 months or so and none of them have agreed with you. Any guess as to why? Why are you so brilliant and they some dumb?

I suspect the dumb a$$ is you.

82 posted on 03/04/2003 8:58:15 PM PST by Tennessean4Bush
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To: Viva Le Dissention
I'm sorry I read your posts and responded. You are a time waster. Shame on me. I've been here almost six years and should have recognized it right away.
83 posted on 03/04/2003 8:59:10 PM PST by doug from upland (Bill and Hillary's first instinct is survival.....their second is to lie.)
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To: doug from upland
What will they say when we get Osama? Ohh the misery to be a liberal -- knowing that dastardly Americans have their idol in a cage -- being tortured somewhere they can send a lawyer or the red cross to supervise. They better wake up -- the world is changing.
84 posted on 03/04/2003 9:12:29 PM PST by Naspino
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To: doug from upland
I doubt what we're going to do to this guy will resemble torture to anybody but the most tortured liberal mind (if you'll pardon the pun).

I deal with quite a bit of documentation on torture and help people who have been tortured gain asylum. Torture is things like putting out cigarettes in peoples' skin, using pliers to squeeze testicles, rape, purposeful application of fire to skin and hair, violent removal of teeth, breaking of bones, and so on.

The problem with torture as a method of interrogation is that the information produced is completely unreliable - someone who is being tortured, if not strong enough to resist, will say anything - true or false - that will make the pain stop. So there's no way to know whether any statement from a person when coerced under torture is true or not. This is why we don't allow people to be tortured in the USA, and why any coerced confession is inadmissible.

Granted, we're not putting this guy on trial right now, we're wringing information out of him. Even so, psychological tactics are far far more effective than physical ones, and they leave no visible marks for liberals to bray over.
85 posted on 03/04/2003 9:18:42 PM PST by thoughtomator (I pick 'with us' - what's your choice?)
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Take, for example, World War II, our last real "war."

You think WWII was our last real war? (Why do you keep putting it in quotes?) That must come as a shock to our Korean and Vietnam veterans. Especially the survivors of the 120 thousand or so who died in those... well... wars.

Seem different to me, but that's just me--most notably, lack of the word war.

I know. You really are hung up on the words "declare" and "war". Those words are key to you, more important than reality, even. If they are not present that it's not "really" a war. I understand all that, but that's your hang-up, not mine.

You will note, I hope, the words "all necessary and appropriate force". Make no mistake, that's a declaration of war, and Congress knew it (and the Taliban knew it). It wasn't like they passed this thing and Bush started sending soldiers to Afghanistan and then Congressmen started saying "hey that's not what we meant" and Taliban started saying "we didn't know that was coming". It was, for all intents and purposes, a declaration of war, and war was what followed. If you still don't believe me ask the hundreds of dead Talibs and other Afghans whether it was a war.

I guess they'll say no, like you do, because words determine reality. In fact I guess they're not really dead; how can they be if it wasn't even really a war in the first place?

Fascinating.

86 posted on 03/04/2003 9:22:42 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Pokey78
Fears that US will use 'torture lite' on al-Qaida No 3

"FEARS"??? Who is "fearing" this? What a joke this paper is. It isn't good enough to wipe your ass with.

87 posted on 03/04/2003 9:26:22 PM PST by montag813
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Boy, you've read the entire left playbook and added a few chapters, havent you?

I keep hearing you prattling on about Constitutional rights, but never explaining what you mean by them. He's not an American Citizen; not a taxpayer; not a voter. He's a foreign national who's been implicated in causing hundreds of American deaths.

Would you please indicate the article and section of the US Constitution which guarantees his rights?

If not, please stop being part of the problem and begin finding ways to be part of the solution.

88 posted on 03/04/2003 9:30:42 PM PST by America's Resolve ("We have prepared for the unbelievers, whips and chains and blazing fires!" Koran 76:4)
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To: canuck_conservative
and if sleep dep does not work,do whatever it takes
89 posted on 03/04/2003 9:31:58 PM PST by since1868
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To: Viva Le Dissention
By the way, if I'm not mistaken, Congress specifically gave the President all necessary powers to handle the Al'Queda/War on Terrorism at his discretion. No weasel words that you can possibly spill out will change that.
90 posted on 03/04/2003 9:32:48 PM PST by America's Resolve ("We have prepared for the unbelievers, whips and chains and blazing fires!" Koran 76:4)
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To: thoughtomator
I agree with your conclusions. I suspect that he will be treated to some joy juice.
91 posted on 03/04/2003 9:33:12 PM PST by doug from upland (Bill and Hillary's first instinct is survival.....their second is to lie.)
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To: Dr. Frank
Hey Doc,
I was going to recommend you not waste any more heart beats replying to "long live the disentary mouth" (or whatever that french name means), but as I kept reading his pearls of wizz dumb replies, I was reminded of that mystery poster during those good old glory days of impeachment, "Quidem".

Does anyone other old time FReeper see the similarity?

92 posted on 03/04/2003 9:41:31 PM PST by nevergiveup (I AM that guy from Pawtucket.)
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To: Pokey78
I guess the whiners have forgotten the victims of 9-11 already. Now THAT's torture and it wasn't lite either.
93 posted on 03/04/2003 9:45:12 PM PST by goldstategop
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To: Viva Le Dissention
the Constitution applies to non-citizens, too

Upon what authority do you base this bizarre claim?

I, for one, am outraged that this poor al Qaeda lamb might possibly be placed in an awkward position for periods of time. No! Not that! The Geneva Convention and the UN Charter and the Constitution clearly prevent forced awkward positions! For anyone on the planet!

I would, however, make an exception for you, on the other hand.

94 posted on 03/04/2003 9:45:12 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Viva Le Dissention
the Constitution applies to non-citizens, too

Upon what authority do you base this bizarre claim?

I, for one, am outraged that this poor al Qaeda lamb might possibly be placed in an awkward position for periods of time. No! Not that! The Geneva Convention and the UN Charter and the Constitution clearly prevent forced awkward positions! For anyone on the planet!

I would, however, make an exception for you, on the other hand.

95 posted on 03/04/2003 9:45:13 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Pokey78
I guess the whiners have forgotten the victims of 9-11 already. Now THAT's torture and it wasn't lite either.
96 posted on 03/04/2003 9:45:13 PM PST by goldstategop
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To: Viva Le Dissention
I compare to the post 9-11 Congressional resolution: "The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations,..."

That pretty much covers it doesn't it? Perfectly Constitutional too.

97 posted on 03/04/2003 9:47:27 PM PST by TigersEye (Let the liberals whine -- it's what they do.)
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To: canuck_conservative; thatsnotnice
Sleep deprivation can be surprisingly effective, ...

I'll second that.

Another neat trick is to allow 45-minute 'naps', with 15-minute wakeup periods after about 36 hours.

After about three of those 45/15 minute cycles, the hallucinations are right around the corner.

98 posted on 03/04/2003 10:09:22 PM PST by DuncanWaring (...and Freedom tastes of Reality.)
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To: butter pecan fan
...Does im want a widdle bit more sweep??

Don't worry - after a few days he'll be begging to sell his soul for "a widdle bit more sweep"

99 posted on 03/04/2003 10:18:55 PM PST by DuncanWaring (...and Freedom tastes of Reality.)
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To: Viva Le Dissention
The Bill of Rights carefully deals with rights during "times of War." I don't see a reason they should be disregarded now.

Non-citizens outside the territory of the United States are not entitled to the protections of the Constitution.

100 posted on 03/04/2003 10:24:17 PM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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