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Fears that US will use 'torture lite' on al-Qaida No 3
The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | 03/05/03 | Duncan Campbell

Posted on 03/04/2003 7:29:58 PM PST by Pokey78

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the al-Qaida leader captured in Pakistan over the weekend, was yesterday believed to be under interrogation at a US base in Afghanistan.

The White House denied he was being tortured, although there is speculation that a variety of techniques known in the intelligence community as "torture lite" would be used to get information from him.

Mohammed, who is said to to be the number three in al-Qaida, was arrested on Saturday in Pakistan, in a joint operation by the CIA and Pakistani police. He was initially interrogated in Pakistan but has now been moved.

The US does not comment on individual prisoners held in the wake of September 11, but Pakistani officials said they understood that he was now being held in Afghanistan, reportedly at the Bagram base.

The arrest follows last month's capture in Pakistan of Muhammed Abdel Rahman, a son of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in 1995 of conspiring to blow up the UN offices in New York.

Information provided by Mr Rahman led to the latest arrest, according to a report in the New York Times.

There was also speculation that Ramzi bin al-Shibh, who was arrested in Pakistan last year, had given information about Mohammed under interrogation. The two had been in hiding together in Karachi.

Qari Abdul Wali, a Taliban military commander in hiding near the Afghan town of Spin Boldak, told Reuters that al-Qaida would remain intact despite the arrest.

"The arrest of a few individuals from within al-Qaida's ranks will have no bearing on the organisation's functioning," Mr Wali said. "Representatives of al-Qaida and the Taliban keep their communications going, but that doesn't mean we are likely to snitch on each other."

Interrogators are likely to seek two key pieces of information from Mohammed: plans for attacks on the US or US interests, and the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said in response to questions about the detention of Mohammed: "The standard for any type of interrogation of somebody in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type subject. That is precisely what has been happening and exactly what will happen."

But lawyers for those detained after September 11 believe prisoners held abroad are often subjected to torture.

Randy Hamud, who represents a number of Arabs detained in San Diego, said he believed his clients had been taken to countries where they could be tortured. There have also been reports that police in countries such as Pakistan and Jordan are given prisoners by the US in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

A former member of US navy intelligence said that "torture lite" - sleep deprivation, and placing prisoners in awkward or painful positions for hours at a time - would be used.

The Democratic senator John Rockefeller suggested at the weekend that the US might consider turning over Mohammed to a country that does not ban torture. He told CNN: "I wouldn't take anything off the table where he is concerned, because this is the man who has killed hundreds and hundreds of Americans over the last 10 years."

He had since said that he was not condoning torture.

The secretary of homeland security, Tom Ridge, said Mohammed would have significant information but would be hard to interrogate.

"We know that these individuals are trained and programmed in the craft of evasion. It will be very, very difficult to extricate information from this guy at this time."

There was also speculation that Mohammed would be questioned about the murder last year of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
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To: Viva Le Dissention
oh, war powers. You mean, not declaring war.

Not at all. That is how Congress chose to declare war in that case. It's up to Congress, after all, how they choose to declare war.

61 posted on 03/04/2003 8:30:03 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: Viva Le Dissention
So is the "war on drugs" like a war enough that we can disregard the Constitutional safeguards

If you bothered to read any of FR before flaming, you might find that, except for a small coterie of jackboot lickers that can't seem to find the right fetish sites, Freepers don't like the War on Drugs or any other pseudo-militarization of U.S. law enforcement.

Do you understand there is a reason the CIA is banned from running ops inside the U.S.? One side of our border is different form the other side. Otherwise, why bother with borders?

63 posted on 03/04/2003 8:32:35 PM PST by eno_
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To: Objective Reality
Liquified pork? How about a cozy cell full of about 10 jumbo size hogs to keep him company while he can't sleep for the next 10 days.
64 posted on 03/04/2003 8:33:13 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Wouldn't it follow that since the Bill of Rights specifies which rights can be abridged during times of war, that the ones that are not mentioned can't be altered?

Sure. Those same rights apply to every US citizen. Which US citizen are you concerned about?

65 posted on 03/04/2003 8:33:22 PM PST by Tennessean4Bush
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To: Dr. Frank
You're joking, right?

It is interesting to me, though, for a so-called conservative forum, how many of ya'll just totally ignore the Constitution. Not just the Bill of Rights, but really just any part about anything that seems to get in the way of whatever you want to do.

Then again, so-called conservative judges have ruled for decades that administrative agencies are constitutional, so I guess nothing should come as a surprise as this point.
66 posted on 03/04/2003 8:35:56 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: TexanToTheCore
Rather than "Toture Lite", we should be using "Torture Turbo".

Apart from the ethical issues, the main problem with severe torture is that eventually the subject will say anything that they think will end the suffering.

C'mon, who among us wouldn't quack like a duck if we thought it would satisfy the demands of somebody who's been beating us bloody for hours on end?

I'd say the "torture lite" is perhaps the best avenue, though I must admit I'm squeamish about any sort of torture, even in the name of saving lives.

-Jay

67 posted on 03/04/2003 8:36:41 PM PST by Jay D. Dyson (I have no sense of diplomacy. I consider that a character asset.)
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To: Viva Le Dissention
So you think, by the way, that Congress went through to trouble to enumerate which rights are affected by wartime, that means that all the other constitutional safeguards are up for grabs during "wartime?"

No, of course not, you're right, the Constitution applies to foreign enemies during wartime. My mistake. That's why during all wars, all of our soldiers, in all battles, before firing upon (=applying capital punishment to) an enemy soldier, put them on trial before a jury of that enemy's peers.... yup < /sarcasm >

Wouldn't it follow that since the Bill of Rights specifies which rights can be abridged during times of war, that the ones that are not mentioned can't be altered?

You're right. I'm so stupid. You've convinced me. Damn, so that means our soldiers aren't even allowed to kill enemies w/o trials. I guess this means we lose all wars by default. Our Constitution requires it! ;-)

And also, I'm unclear how the value of the information pertains at all to the discussion.

I see. Thanks for sharing that. Meanwhile, some of us do think it's important, indeed, to try to save the lives of our fellow countrymen from murderous attacks. What can I say, that's just the way we are. To each his own, though....

68 posted on 03/04/2003 8:38:39 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Viva Le Dissention
It is interesting to me, though, for a so-called conservative forum, how many of ya'll just totally ignore the Constitution.

Please explain how I am ignoring the Constitution. Congress has the power to declare war. They did so in fall 01. Which part confuses you?

I guess you think they are required to use the word "declare" when they declare war? Where is that, in the Constitution?

69 posted on 03/04/2003 8:40:21 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Just for my own information, since ya'll don't seem to use the same definition of "war" as the Constitution, if you could just go ahead and tell me what it is, I'd appreciate it.

West Point taught me the definition of war and since you seemed to be asleep on 9-11 ... I'll let you in on a little secret .... the other side is NOT fighting by the recognized international rules of combat and therefore they are they NOT entitled to many provisions protecting them. Having said that .... my brother another West Pointer .... just came back from Bagram and it is clear to me that those terrorists deserve that sleep deprivation (it is amazing what happens after 4 days without sleep). If he is guilty (or does not cut a deal ASAP) I am sure he will be tried and then killed.

70 posted on 03/04/2003 8:40:34 PM PST by Yasotay
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To: Tennessean4Bush
You see, the funny thing about the Constitution is that it specifically says which rights apply to citizens--take the 14th, for example.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Do you think that's a mistake or sloppy composition? I think it was deliberate, myself. Citizens have certain rights that non-citizens don't--but due process is guaranteed to everyone.

71 posted on 03/04/2003 8:41:07 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Still waiting for an answer to No. 58.
72 posted on 03/04/2003 8:43:29 PM PST by doug from upland (Bill and Hillary's first instinct is survival.....their second is to lie.)
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

To: Viva Le Dissention
The guy was caught in Pakistan and is being "debriefed" in Afghanistan. In addition to being the mastermind of 9/11, hes not even an American citizen. How can constitutional rights apply here? I hope they turn him over to the Northern Alliance. I hope they pull his fingernails out and shove them up his ass. This monster has been alive too long already, and you are concerned with his rights. Your handle says it all, but good luck, concern for the welfare of Al-Qaeda brass wont make you any friends here......
74 posted on 03/04/2003 8:44:28 PM PST by cardinal4 (The Senate Armed Services Comm; the Chinese pipeline into US secrets)
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

To: Viva Le Dissention
"Funny, I must have slept through that day when Congress declared war."

You did. Congress authorized the President to do everything he is now doing, militarily and otherwise, on our country's behalf. Congress has the power to do that. They have exercised that power, without formal declaration of war, since the 1790s. And the USSC has upheld this arrangement many times.

Yes, you have been sleeping. The Bill of Rights does not apply to foreign belligerants on foreign soil. Nor do international conventions, such as Geneva, apply to terrorists and other war criminals who are not signatory to those agreements and who do not abide by them.

Educate yourself. I am embarassed for you.

76 posted on 03/04/2003 8:46:03 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Dr. Frank
Congress seems to operate on a similar idea. Take, for example, World War II, our last real "war."

MONDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1941
DECLARATION OF STATE OF WAR WITH JAPAN
The Senate having returned to its chamber (at 12 o'clock and 47 minutes p. m.), it reassembled and the Vice President resumed the chair.

Mr. BARKLEY. I suggest the absence of a quorum.

The VICE PRESIDENT. The clerk will call the roll. The legislative clerk called the roll.

* * * * * *

The VICE PRESIDENT. Eighty-two Senators have answered to their names. A quorum is present.

Mr. CONNALLY. Mr. President, I introduce a joint resolution, and ask for its immediate consideration without reference to a committee.

The VICE PRESIDENT. The joint resolution will be read.

The joint resolution (S. J. Res. 116) declaring that a state of war exists between the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of the United States, and making provision to prosecute the same, was read the first time by its title, and the second time at length, as follows:

"Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the United states of America:

"Therefore be it

"Resolved, etc., That the state of war between the United states and the Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United states."



I compare to the post 9-11 Congressional resolution:

"The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

Seem different to me, but that's just me--most notably, lack of the word war.
77 posted on 03/04/2003 8:46:52 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: doug from upland
the whole thread is about this.
78 posted on 03/04/2003 8:47:34 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: Pokey78
Make sure they hose him down before they let him sleep in the hole every night ...
79 posted on 03/04/2003 8:48:41 PM PST by 11th_VA
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To: Viva Le Dissention
I'd love to stay up all night and chat with ya'll but I'd better be getting to bed. I'm sure I'll see most of you around the water cooler sometime soon.
80 posted on 03/04/2003 8:49:18 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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