Behind the Headlines: NK Intercept of Spy Plane Reveals Careful Planning, Allied Mistakes

Self | 3/4/03 | Self

[Steel Wolf]

Perhaps they weren't North Korean pilots in the seats of those fighters; maybe Chinese pilots are getting some training...

Chinese pilots don't lack opportunities to intercept U.S. recon planes. This has Kim Jong Il's fingerprints all over it. It was a high level, coordinated effort to escalate the tensions in the area, something China has no interest in. They want the status quo, not conflict.

[spodefly]

Thanks for the insight. This perspective is something that we would not get from the mainstream press. Glad FR has people knowledgable about the inside scoop.

[tesshu]

My guess was that the provocation of the RC-135 was not the goal. Most likely they were hopeing that a SK or a US fighter would get in the mix and there would be some shooting. This could be spun into an act of war and moved attention away from Irag. Makes you wonder why NK is increasing their activity and rhetoric the closer we get to invading Iraq.....

[John H K]

One of the more futile arguments on FR is trying to convince people that the PRC doesn't micromanage and control all evil in the world down to the smallest detail.

Of course, back in the 60s, we thought that about the Soviet Union; at the same time the Soviets and the Chinese were involved in large-scale land combat with each other over border disputes, ironically.

For whatever reason it makes people feel better to believe all evil has a single controller, though.

[Steel Wolf]

You'd have to ask Spook86 for sure, but I'd assume that they were in and out before any U.S. or ROK fighters could have made it on the scene. A 150 mile dash to a slow moving transport plane and back could probably happen before any friendly fighters could be scrambled and sent to intercept.

They wouldn't want to wait for any fighters anyway. Hitting the RC-135 would be an easy kill, and they could fly home and claim they were provoked by an intrusion into their airspace. A U.S. or ROK fighter attack would probably leave the North Koreans sans four Migs.

[swarthyguy]

Excellent. Considered submitting it for publication?

[finnman69]

RC-135 Cobra Ball

[CyberAnt]

Thanks for the info - but I can bet there will NOT be any more "allied mistakes" ...??

[Spook86]

An interesting sidelight on this...during my days in Korea, the recce "defense" mission was initially handled by F-15s based at Osan AB, about 35 miles south of Seoul. The F-15s were actually deployed from Kadena AB on Okinawa. The Eagle drivers didn't particularly like the alert mission and they complained until it was reassigned to the 8th FW at Kunsan AB. The 8th (better known as The Wolfpack) flew Block 40 F-16Cs in those days. The only problem was location. Kunsan is located 180 NM south of the DMZ. That's a long way if you're trying to intercept a NK MiG before it can knock down an RC-135 over the Sea of Japan. In fact, some of us at Kunsan had misgivings about the mission for that very reason. Still, the 8th soldiered on with the alert mission until it was eliminated in the late 1990s (or so I was told). The "best" way to defend RC-135s of the SOJ is with F-15s from Osan, or ROKAF F-16s from a base in the northern part of that country. I'll bet you a dollar someone in Korea is sitting that mission today.....

[CyberAnt]

I have a second and third question ...??

What is your assessment of this little "incident" being a dry run to take down the aircraft - the same as the one in China - except they knew this aircraft was not the exact same kind ...??

But ... did they have to get a visual to be able to tell the difference ...??

[Spook86]

To answer your question, yes, it could have been a dry run, especially since NK hasn't conducted one of these in quite a while. BTW, it's no accident that the intercept was conducted by MiG-23s and MiG-29s; not only are these the best fighters in the DPRK inventory, they're also flown by the most experienced pilots. And, not surprisingly, it's very rare for the MiG-23s and MiG-29s to operate together--another indication that this was not your typical intercept....

[wretchard]

The fact the NKs could pull this off so smoothly should give us some pause in our assuptions of their capabilities and intentions.

This type of activity is an operational staple of the North Koreans. Back in the 1960s they shot down an EC-121, killing 31. They seized the USN intelligence ship Pueblo(seizing a Navy ship doesn't happen very often). Back in the mid-1970s, a bunch of North Korean guards in the truce village suddenly attacked unarmed US troops with axes. They've got guys there who think of nothing else all day long.

This incident shows the dangers inherent in a defensive posture. It allows the enemy the choice of time and place of attack, and he will choose the most favorable circumstances, making even defended targets vulnerable. Remember the Marine barracks in Beirut; Khafji; the Cole, the Khobar Towers; the WTC.

I personally do not believe that providing recon flights off Korea with better radar warning or fighter cover would be possible, or work in all cases. It might be better to deniably intercept Nokor Migs or coastal boats training for similar missions, so that they vanish without a trace, without a Mayday.

[Tommyjo]

China doesn't operate either MiG-29s or MiG-23s.

[Taxman]

If the account I read is correct, one of the MIGS "locked up" the -135 with it's (the Mig's) fire control radar, which, if I recall the ROE, is considered an act of war.

The -135 does not have any offensive or defensive capability, and had the North Korean Communist pilot mashed his button, the -135 and crew would be history.

Need a serious rethink here, as you noted. Fighter escort with "white ones" on the rails?

[CyberAnt]

Third Question: Did they have to get visual (50 ft away) in order to find out if this type of plane was the same as the one that went down in China ...??

Or ... do they have equipment which could tell the difference without the visual ...??

[Spook86]

The NKs might be able to determine the variant by a couple of things. First, the flight profile. Cobra Ball, as I recall, operates a slightly different track than Rivet Joint, which (typically) maintains a racetrack-style orbit while collecting. These differences should be discernable on radar. There might also be slight difference in ELINT emissions from each aircraft, reflecting the different sensor suites onboard. One more thing: at altitude, you don't really need to get within 50 feet to discern a Ball from Rivet Joint. Ball is the only aircraft in the world with its right side and wing painted black, to reduce glare that could affect its onboard telescopes....

[CyberAnt]

Great info - thanks. I was trying to give N.K. the benefit of the doubt - but your explanations remove that.