Posted on 02/21/2003 8:23:13 AM PST by Destro
don't speak the local language
never heard of the place until they were sent there
were force fed lies from the start
and were carefully escorted around
knows exactly whose blood he saw
knows the identities of bodies no one else can id
knows exactly what happened 5 years prior in a place he never heard of
knows exactly what locals said in a language, he can't read, can't understand, doesn't even know one song
knows precise aspects of local culture and mores despite never having read a novel, poem,or short story written by one of the world famous local authors...
knows all the locals opened up to him ( well at least his translators) because he was such a sensitive person...despite the fact that he was the member of a brutal foreign military occupation force supporting the local KKK/SLA/Black Panthers.
Homeagain has carefully constructed a version of events which suits his (apparent) racist predilictions. Any subsequent information which contradicts his world view is imply dismissed and a evil conspircy.
Sometimes that happens in civil war Loyalties get crossed. The commander of III Corps out of Tuzla was a Serb; many Tuzla Serbs stuck with the Izetbegovic government because they recognized Slobo to be the Nazi thug that he is/was, or because (like my one translator friend, Duke the Sportscaster), had the temerity to marry non-Serb women and didn't like being threatened.
Some Yankees who married Southern gals fought for the South; some anti-Slavery and some pro-Constitutional Southerners stuck with the North, including Andrew Johnson of Tennessee, who succeeded Lincoln. If you expect coherency, go devote yourself to the history of Rommel in the Desert. Civil wars are much messier than that.
Please, you know all this, but you're just playing trying to stick to a line that has been disproved over and over. I'm done with this stupidity.
I wish I were. And nothing has been disproved, we're just seeing the Serb Party Line spewed over and over and over and over and over.
knows exactly whose blood he saw
ICMP/ICTY did that work. That's their job. I trust them. You say you don't because they contradict the Serb Party Line.
knows the identities of bodies no one else can id
When you find 125 machinegunned bodies wearing Bosnian uniforms or carrying Bosnian IDs, or Bosnian money, and they're all males between the ages of 12 and 90, and they're blindfolded and have their hands tied behind their backs with barbed wire, you may not know the names of the individual dead, but you can take to the bank that they were Muslims or at least fighting on the side of the Bosnian government and they were executed. They can't be precisely ID'd by name because, well, you guys took their IDs before putting bullets in their brains.
knows exactly what happened 5 years prior in a place he never heard of
Relies on international investigators who present evidence in a court of law rather than eating whatever line of crap comes from Serb journalists last week
knows exactly what locals said in a language, he can't read, can't understand, doesn't even know one song
See above about court evidence and own-eyes. As for the songs, life is too short to listen to Serbian techno-folk.
knows precise aspects of local culture and mores despite never having read a novel, poem,or short story written by one of the world famous local authors...
No, I'm not all knowing about the local culture. BFD. You guys are gluing yourself to Stavka, and he's no more literate in the local culture than I am. How convenient.
knows all the locals opened up to him ( well at least his translators) because he was such a sensitive person...despite the fact that he was the member of a brutal foreign military occupation force supporting the local KKK/SLA/Black Panthers.
Well, you guys want this corner of FreeRepublic to be a little Republika Srpska, a Serb only club, a rotting hell hole where you can repeat lies to each other with impugnity and without contradiction all day long and forget the huge amounts of innocent blood dripping from your flag. And I'm pi$$ing you off by injecting some reality. But guess what? You can't tie my hands behind my back and blindfold me and stick me into a barn. You just have to live with me.
Peace through superior firepower. In this case, the truth.
Two words: Watch us.
The ICTY, which I trust a lot more than I trust the Serb Party Version. You guys are like Clinton: you lie and lie and lie and lie and lie and lie and lie and befoul the air with so many lies that it is impossible to determine what really went on. This is why I rely on the ICTY, whose job it was to sort lies from truth.
The ICTY didn't just rely on eyewitness accounts; they backed it up with forensic information, with intercepted communications turned over to the ICTY as evidence, with satellite photography, with videotapes. They presented it formally. They gave the accused (specifically Krstic the successor to Mladic at Sreb) hundreds of thousands of dollars for lawyers of his choice to confront and explain and contradict the evidence. He couldn't do it; there was simply too much. As a result he was bound to justice.
To hear you guys say it, anything that doesn't howl in triumph over the corpses of dead Muslims is an anti-Serb conspiracy.
Like Zimmerman telling Izetbegovic to withdraw his signature from the Lisbon Agreement, that could have prevented the war. Yeah, those guys at the State Departement and at the Pentagon don't know what they're doing. Don't think so.
I have no knowledge that that happened, and besides, so long as Serbs were howling for Greater Serbia, war was inevitable anyway,
The Serbs besieged Sarajevo.
BS. Sarajevo was partly under Serbian and partly under muslim controll during the whole war. It was a divided city, whereas both sides kept firing on each other. It looked like siege on CNN, but it wasn't. The Serbs held to their parts of the city and the surrounding suburbs and the muslims to theirs. Ever heard of Grbavica, Romanija? How many tens of thousands Serbs had to leave Serb Sarajevo after Dayton? What about the muslim staged Markale killings for PR purposes?
Oh, horse$#!t. Non-Serb Sarajevo was surrounded and cut off from the outside world with only a tunnel to keep it alive (I've seen the tunnel, thank you very much). The city was subject to random shellfire from the surrounding hills and to snipers who shot people down in the streets. I'm not making that up; that was on TV for years, and contributed heavily to your defeat. And it sounds to me like you're morally outraged that the beseiged inside the city actually had the effrontery to fire back. Kind of like Srebrenica.
Europe began to be flooded with large number of Yugoslavian refugees, annoying European taxpayers.
Serbia received almost a milion refugees, so what?
The rest of Europe was not at war. You Annoyed the Neighbors. Bad move.
Muslims and Croats began to beat the hell out of each other when things got tough, thus making the Serbs look a little bit better by comparison.
How come the Serbs had no problems at all with Fikret Abdic, the elected President of Bosnia and Hercegovina, but croats and Alija's muslims did?
Because Abdic, annoyed that he didn't get his turn as Bosnian President, cooperated with Izzy's enemies. You guys.
Serbs began to threaten taking UN piecekeepers and relief personnel hostage.
Serbs were getting bombed these 'peacekeepers', so they shouldn't been surprised about retaliation.
Uh, no, the hostages were taken BEFORE, not AFTER, the bombing commenced; the threats began when we tried to get the Serbs to come to the negotiating table. Again, Bad Move. You Annoyed The Neighbors.
Serbs began rounding up Muslim prisoners of war and sticking them in barns and machinegunning them to death in public...
On CNN? Must have missed that one!
Under the eyes of US intelligence who turned the data over to the UN and the ICTY, and was eventually used to throw Krstic in jail for life.
We also decided that the bogus Serb "independent republics" in Croatia needed to be put out of business, not because we thought the Croats had the better claim, but because they were slightly better behaved than the Serbs were (better behaved = not rounding up and shooting large numbers of people with an election year coming up, and having the good sense to keep TV cameras away when ethnic cleansing).
What are you talking about? Krajina was calm for about three years, since the UN came in. Except Medak poket. Where did this rounding up and shooting of Croats by Krajina Serbs took place in 1995?
This is Textbook Serb Spin. Haven't seen anything like it since the impeachment. No. They didn't round up and shoot Croats, nor did they do it in 1995. They ETHNICALLY CLEANSED Croats, drove them out at gunpoint, and did that in 1991-1992 during the early stages of the war.
Blitz, Storm, and the NATO bombing campaign, followed by creative sleep deprivation against the Serb negotiators in Dayton (plus taking advantage of the fact that Milosevic cut your throats when you weren't looking by giving away the Brcko store and the territories around Sarajevo--he SCREWED you guys, don't you know?), followed by the Op. Joint Forge REAL peacekeeping mission.
Yes, Milosevic screwed the Serbs. Agreed.
Notify the media. We agree on something.
Early on, the US might have been perfectly willing to allow a settlement where the Serbs were allowed to keep these lands in their jurisdiction. As it was, we DID allow you to keep 49% of Bosnia, even though you're only 31% of the population there.
How generous you are, to allow people to keep their own property.
Really? What about the property of the "muslis" etc you guys drove out of the RS? You keep showing maps of 1981 and 1991. Have you the balls to show maps of Bosnia today, where the RS has majority Serb in tons of territory not portrayed as majority Serb in your 1991 maps? Territory taken by the BSA to ensure "territorial integrity of greater Serbia" and then cleansed (not necessarily genocided but cleansed by driving out) of Muslims?
Signs of a perverted and degenerated morality. The Serbs make up only 31% due to the Ustasha-genocide in WWII. Are you happy that the number of Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia was reduced so succesfully by Hitler's allies?
Standard Serb Party Line. Let's see some independent (NON SERB NON CROAT) numbers on the "genocide" of Serbs in WW2 please. Besides, that was then; this is now; you don't have the right to invoke your father's suffering to justify your own crimes.
Private ownership of land of those households whose head of the family is of Serbian nationality in percents in Bosnia and Herzegovina (according to settlements) according to the population census on March 31, 1981
See above. Where are the maps of 2003?
In 1999, after our (admittedly in-your-face) negotiations with Serbia broke down, you started repeating steps "5" and "7" above against the Kosovars.
Ah, that's what you call negotiating: 'Sign or get bombed'! As a lawyer you should know, that contracts signed under the barrel of a gun are null and void.
Uh, a treaty is NOT a contract. Are you saying the Japanese surrender of 1945 is null and void? And yes, sign or get bombed is what we do to countries that commit war crimes that Annoy The Neighbors. As Hussein is about to discover.
The refugee crisis 'exploded' after NATO started it's carpet bombing in Kosovo. But that's what NATO needed to sell this 'humanitarian war', isn't it?
Well, it exploded after the paramilitary thugs who've been hanging around in coffee bars in Serbia decided to roll south and shoot up the country. The fact that it helped us sell the war should have been taken into account before you guys let the tigers loose.
Be glad we didn't shut down the Republika Srpska too. Frankly I wish we'd did, the place is a hellhole.
Like you did shut down the former Yugoslavia? Mister, you are an @$$hole, who is no position to shut down countries around the planet.
Like I said. Watch us.
As stated numerous times on this thread, the vast majority of posters here are manifestly NOT "serbs", yet you continue to obess about "serb domination".
Ultimately HumWarrior zenophobic racism blinds them from seeing the truth
as for the 125 bodies in ABiH uniforms found with their hands bound and blindfolded, provide a link to the forensic report. As far as I know the forensic teams never found such a thing.
as for the truth being told in the court of law, you obviously haven't read the Krtsic trial transcripts closely. For any reasonable person reading the Krtsic transcripts would most certainly agree with the straightforward presentation of the Liberation of Srebrenica rather than the far fetched conspricy tale put forth by the HumWarriors
Your definition of "any reasonable person" consists of Serbs or their amen corner.
Look, I've had it with this thread. Hundreds of posts have been made and it's all a tailchasing one-lie-after-another from you guys, mixed in with just enough irrelevant truth and ancient history (as in WW2) to keep the thing going.
In short, life's too short for this. That's it. I'm out of here.
And if you want to claim 'victory,' knock yourselves out. I know the truth.
Or, let me introduce you to Zoran, who was involved with preventing a Bosnian Muslim Army Bio-Terrorism attack on Eastern Bosna. Your Muslims were set in adding chlorine into the water treatment plant at Gorazde. You ever wonder why the Serb Army withdrew Gorazde without any complaint? They prevented the Muslim terrorists from contaminating the entire water supply in all of Eastern Bosna. That Muslim act kept in line with their M.O: indiscriminate killing to conjure up a PR stunt and blame the Serbs.
Or, let me introduce you to Zoran, who was involved with preventing a Bosnian Muslim Army Bio-Terrorism attack on Eastern Bosna. Your friendly neighborhood Muslims were set in adding chlorine into the water treatment plant at Gorazde. You ever wonder why the Serb Army withdrew Gorazde without any complaint? They prevented the Muslim terrorists from contaminating the entire water supply in all of Eastern Bosna. That Muslim act kept in line with their M.O: indiscriminate killing to conjure up a PR stunt and blame the Serbs.
Or, let me introduce you to Zoran, who was involved with preventing a Bosnian Muslim Army Bio-Terrorism attack on Eastern Bosna. Your friendly neighborhood Muslims were set in adding chlorine into the water treatment plant at Gorazde. You ever wonder why the Serb Army withdrew Gorazde without any complaint? They prevented the Muslim terrorists from contaminating the entire water supply in all of Eastern Bosna. That Muslim act kept in line with their M.O: indiscriminate killing to conjure up a PR stunt and blame the Serbs.
Gen Rose knew what the Serbs were doing and allowed them a free run, but under the guise of airstrike threats that did materialize. Albeit, the damage was done to metal junk no longer serviceable. Once the Serbs destroyed that tower, the Serbs and Gen Rose's tacit understanding prevented your friends from killing thousands and thousands of innocent people. Though, your muslims friends did strike seven years later, thanks to your support.
raSSist Jihadi, this will cause pain in your SS Nazi stomach...:
http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/ (<- click)
http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/BACK/Casualties.htm (<- click)
http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/Hist427/texts/wwiicasualty.htm (<- click)
http://www.ww2n.com/archives/cas.shtml (<- click)
Good work, done by your Fascist SS Nazi Handzar troopers ... Jiiiiiiihaaaaad
Karadjordje
The Serb party line? Hmmm, I'm seeing a lot of the Musli party line coming from you. And by my experience, I'd rather trust Christians, had enough of your "friendly" Musli pointing guns at me.
SS Jihadi, read how Fanatic Fascist your SS Jihads were:
Canadian Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, commander of U.N. forces in Sarajevo, explains this incident in his book "Peacakeeper, The Road to Sarajevo":
"[...] May 27 1992 - Disaster in Sarajevo. People lined up for bread were attacked, and at least seventeen killed. Presidency claims it was a Serb mortar attack, Serbs claim it was a set-up using explosives. Our people tell us there were a number of things that didn't fit. The street had been blocked off just before the incident. Once the crowd was let in and lined up, the media appeared but kept distance. The attack took place, and the media was immediately on the scene. The majority of people killed are alleged to be "tame Serbs". Who knows? The only thing for sure is that innocent people were killed. [...]"
United Nations officials and senior Western military officers believe some of the worst recent killings in Sarajevo, including the massacre of at least 16 people in a bread queue, were carried out by the city's mainly Muslim defenders - not Serb besiegers - as a propaganda ploy to win world sympathy and military intervention.
The view has been expressed in confidential reports circulating at UN headquarters in New York, and in classified briefings to US policymakers in Washington. All suggest that Sarajevo's defenders, mainly Muslims but including Croats and a number of Serb residents, staged several attacks on their own people in the hope of dramatizing the city's plight in the face of insuperable Serbian odds.
[...] The televised scenes of civilians cut to pieces by an explosion as they queued for bread on one of Sarajevo's main shopping thoroughfares, Vase Miskina, horrified international public opinion and added to growing pressure for military intervention against the Serbian side in the war. Vivid footage showed dead bodies littering the street and people with severed limbs sitting on the pavement in pools of blood. The attack came shortly before a meeting of European Community ambassadors to consider imposing sanctions on Serbia. The world's press concluded that the atrocity was caused by mortar bombs fired from a Serbian-held positions and attack was widely interpreted as a cynical display of defiance by the Serbs.
[...] Classified reports to the UN force commander, General Satish Nambiar, concluded, however, that the Bosnian forces loyal to President Alija Izetbegovic may have detonated a bomb. [...]"
The Independent, "Muslims 'slaughter their own people'", 22. August 1992
They said French analysts who also examined the scene agreed with them. But they were overruled by the senior American officer, and the UN issued a statement saying it was beyond any doubt that the Bosnian Serbs were responsible for the blast, in which 37 people were killed and 90 wounded. The carnage was used as the pretext for NATO's huge air campaign against the Bosnian Serbs, which was followed by extensive battlefield losses and forced the Serbs to the negotiating table. The British experts were part of a UN team that reached the Trznica market in Sarajevo 40 minutes after the mortar attack on the morning of August 28. They began their inspection amid a bloody scene of smashed fruit stalls and screaming people.
[...] They suspected that the perpetrator might easily have been the Bosnian government army, which has been implicated in other incidents such as a rocket attack on Sarajevo's television station on June 29 in which five people died and 30 others were injured. The observations and findings were confirmed by the French, and they returned to base to make their report. A senior American officer at the United Nations Protection Force headquarters in Sarajevo dismissed their findings, however, citing a small groove known as a "fuse furrow" made in the ground by the bomb head.
He said this indicated that the fatal mortar round had come from the same direction as the others. Neither British nor French analysts noticed such a groove. By nightfall, the UN announced that the Bosnian Serbs were to blame. Fewer than 48 hours later, the NATO air strikes and artillery campaign began. [...]"
London Sunday Times, "British experts dispute Sarajevo bombing probe", 29. Oktober 1995
[...] A Western diplomat who was in Sarajevo at the time told me in 1999 that he was convinced the bombing was perpetrated by the Muslim-led Government. The Muslims were sure that the Serbs would be blamed and hoped that outrage at the carnage would lead to airstrikes against their foes and increase pressure for a lifting of the arms embargo that was in place against all the warring sides. Britain and France were vehemently opposed to lifting the embargo, although America had shown signs of wanting to arm the Muslims.
"On the morning of the explosion some people were told that it was not a good day to go to the market," the Western diplomat said. "There was also no shelling from the Serb positions that day, and the injuries were mainly from the waist down, as if a bomb had exploded in situ." The diplomat said that another sign that the Muslim- led Government had been responsible was that government media with cameras were on the scene "within seconds", as if poised in advance to record the full horror of the carnage to gain as much world impact as possible. [...]"
The Times [London], "Mystery of the market massacre", 28. März 2000
Karadjordje
Oh sure the evil Serb subhumans lie (in ya' Fascist Hanjzar brain) ... SS JIAHD ... Have you read the article about Sarajevo massacre ... read now a statement from a man of whose bravery you can only dream J(IHAD)AG:
Last August, American pilots became the desperate Bosnian government's surrogate air force. What triggered the NATO bombing campaign against the Bosnian Serbs was a U.S. Army officer's bogus report that a Serb mortar attack had killed 38 people. The objective of the air campaign was to bomb the combatants to Dayton, where Richard Holbrooke would try to do the improbable: make peace with those not ready for peace.
Recently, another American, Robert McNamara, made wise from the pain of a warthat often bears his name, was searching for the truth in the graveyards of a terrible American mistake: Vietnam.
McNamara asked Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap what happened in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964. Giap said the American-reported Vietnamese torpedo boat attack which led to the U.S. bombing of his country never happened, confirming what a Medal of Honor winner, retired Adm. Jim Stockdale - who was flying above the nonevent - said long ago.
Giap insisted LBJ and his brass hats made up the incident to suck the U.S. into the war - and it worked. Within hours, the bombs started falling.
The rest is history: Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; by 1968, one- half million Americans were in Vietnam; and by 1973, almost 400,000 Purple Hearts had been awarded.
What a shame it took McNamara 30 years to dig up the truth. Had he only demanded absolute proof at the time, had Congress only not blindly accepted LBJ's staged account, had what lawyers call 'due diligence' only been applied byCongress, perhaps a great tragedy would have been avoided.
Tonkin Gulf-type ruses are as old as war, and too often the follow-on jingoistic juggernaut is impossible to stop.
The chant 'Remember the Maine' triggered our war with Spain, even though there was no proof Spain had sunk our battleship (ITAL) Maine in Havana harbor. Many historians say Cuban guerrillas did it so we would come to their aid, and, just by the way, scarf up a few of Spain's crown jewels as war trophies.
Have the American people been tricked again? CIA spooks and several NATO officers plus a squad of U.N. ammo experts say so. All report that the mortar round that kicked off the NATO bombing was fired not by the Serbs, but by Bosnian Muslims.
British and French ammunition experts arrived at Sarajevo's Trznica market 40 minutes after the attack to do a shell report, a technique used by grunts almostsince the first mortar round slid down a tube.
A good shell report or crater analysis will tell the size of the round and the exact degree from which the shell came. We're not talking rocket science stuff here,but plain old infantryman- putting-a-compass-in-the-still-hot-crater stuff.
The experts agreed the crater was made by a 120mm mortar shell fired from a bearing of 170 degrees. This meant the shell came from the same Bosnian government positions which had been involved in other attacks, such as a rocket that hit Sarajevo's television station in June, causing 35 Bosnian Muslim casualties.
Returning to U.N. headquarters, the 'shell rep' team walked into a Tonkin Gulf-like ambush when a senior American officer - who hadn't even set a boot down near the market - overruled their scene-of-the-crime findings.
The brass hat ordered that the report say the mortar shell was fired by the Serbs. It was the old military senior to subordinate drill: 'You're wrong. I'm right. You're out of here.' Those who have worn a soldier suit with a boss who's into cover-up or deceptions know the exercise well.
As with Spain and Vietnam, just hours after the officer submitted his 'official report,' the bombs fell.
There was no shouting 'Remember the Maine' or 'Remember the Maddox' (the U.S.destroyer that was the Tonkin Gulf ploy) this time. Bosnian Muslim Prime Minister Haris Silajdzic did all the protesting: 'I want air raids, air raids immediately to punish those who are killing innocent people.'
Air raids he got. And now, as with Cuba and Vietnam, we're about to send in another generation of America 'Rough Riders' to follow-up on the raids.
Unless, this time, Congress practices due diligence."
The Sun-Sentinel, 23. November 1995
David H. Hackworth, a retired U.S. Army colonel whose military and journalism careers spanned nearly a dozen wars and conflicts, is AMERICA'S MOST DECORATED LIVING VETERAN.
Dream of is bravery my little J(IHAD)AG.
Karadjordje
What do you know about the "Romeo and Juliet" killing in Sarajevo?
Call me crazy, but is it unreasonable to consider it a foregone conclusion that a JAG officer would know how to spell "impunity"?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.