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The Second Amendment Doesn't Mean What it Says (Mass ACLU Barf-a-rama)
Massachusetts ACLU Loonies ^ | Mass ACLU

Posted on 02/19/2003 2:17:30 PM PST by Skooz

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To: Skooz
i sent this email to their info email:

your organization amazes me. your stance flies in the face of logic and even written history...

i cannot wait for the day that a class action lawsuit is brought upon your organization for its failure to protect our most sacred right, the right to defend oneself and one's freedom....

the damage you do to the second amendment will be the downfall of ALL our rights.

81 posted on 02/19/2003 9:00:00 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: dark_lord
A typical ACLU lie. The "state-run" part, that is. Notice how they slipped that in.

Pretty interesting that the intent of the ammendment was to prop up the right of citizens to protest their government and if necessary overthrow it. The reason liberals have a problem with this is that their endgame is socialism and socialism can't stand up to an armed populace - it requires meek unarmed sheep who cannot stand up for themselves. The first step to a socialist society is preventing the tools of protest from reaching the masses. The more we strengthen the individual, the less the liberal socialists will like us and the louder they will get. The louder they get, the more likely we are to see a greater route of them from power in the next election. It's time the socialists in this country decided to either become americans or revoke citezenship and go live somewhere that puts up with them; but, wait - most socialist regimes wouldn't put up with their nonsense.

82 posted on 02/19/2003 9:14:23 PM PST by Havoc (Excersize your iq muscles, read Coulter)
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To: RonF
The ACLU, and other anti-gun groups are quick to take various USSC decisions out of context, or piecemeal and twisted in order to bolster their argument.

Cases such as Miller and Cruickshank are often cited. If one reads the entire decision, one will find that the rulings are often exactly opposite in intent from the position of the ACLU.

I don't have time to cite chapter and verse, but the info is there for anyone to read.

I understand the plain English of the 2nd, and have further read of the intent of the Founders, who wrote it. I could care less what the USSC, or the ACLU has to say about the matter. You can't reason with someone who is arguing from a position of blind ignorance.

Someday these morons are gonna push too far, and they will get a proper, bloody and expensive education in the true purpose of the 2nd.

83 posted on 02/19/2003 9:29:23 PM PST by wcbtinman
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To: Skooz
BUMP to read and puke later...
84 posted on 02/19/2003 9:50:10 PM PST by dcwusmc ("The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself.")
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To: RonF
I'm not saying that SCOTUS decisions are always right. I'm saying that they're always legal. "Constitutional" is a defined legal term, not a moral opinion.

If you are actually defining "constitutional" as meaning "approved by the U.S. supreme court", then I suppose you're right. However, I dispute that definition. "Constitutional" is no more a legal term (OR moral opinion) than "dead" is. Yes, a person can be declared legally dead by a court, but that doesn't change their metabolic condition. If a dead person is found to be living by a court, they're still dead.

Constitutionality is a matter of fact. Either a law IS consistent with the U.S. Constitution, or it is not. Court declarations cannot change that reality.

You conspicuously didn't answer Skooz's last question... If SCOTUS declared a part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional, would it be?

85 posted on 02/20/2003 6:39:05 AM PST by Sloth (I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!)
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To: Tahts-a-dats-ago
You appear to be pretty educated on the SCOTUS rulings. I have a question related to U.S. v. Miller (1939). Since the basis of that ruling (regarding sawed-off shotguns) against the plaintiff appeared to be that "It is not within judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense", that is, it is not strictly speaking a "militia" type weapon -- then is that a basis for the states restricting certain types of pistols?

I guess my question boils down to this - if a weapon is not in current military use, nor has it historically been used by the military, and does not appear to be useful in "contributing to the common defense" -- then apparently the SCOTUS permits it to be regulated or banned by the states. Is this correct?

86 posted on 02/20/2003 7:48:31 AM PST by dark_lord
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To: RonF
Nonsense. Unconstitutional "laws" may continue to be illegally enforced if the Supreme Court fails in its responsibility, but they are unconstitutional just the same. One might as well suppose that the Earth was actually flat until the classical Greeks figured out that it was round.
87 posted on 02/20/2003 7:53:31 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Sloth
Follow-up question. Couldn't that same reasoning permit me to privately own, say, a functioning artillery piece? I think that it should. In fact, I think it should permit me to own any piece of gear in current usage by the military, or even used in the recent past. Technically, I should be allowed to own shoulder fired anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft missles, etc. Even further, I think that Constitutionally I should be able to make a better case for privately owning such weapons than for owning a .25 cal pistol. What do you think?
88 posted on 02/20/2003 7:54:28 AM PST by dark_lord
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To: RonF
Now, it has been the position of the SCOTUS in many cases that the limitations on Congress also apply to the several State governments, but not always.

You make it sound like the Court just made this up out of thin air, when in fact it was introduced via the Fourteenth Amendment. If anything, the Court as been insufficiently consistent in taking this position, as the clear intent of the amendment drafters was to incorporate the individual rights (it simply never occurred to anyone in those days that another interpretation was possible) recited in the First through Eighth Amendments.

89 posted on 02/20/2003 7:59:40 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Alberta's Child
Post number? };^D )
90 posted on 02/20/2003 8:00:26 AM PST by RJayneJ
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To: RJayneJ
Sorry -- It was the one I was responding to -- #27.
91 posted on 02/20/2003 8:02:01 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: spunkets; wardaddy; Squantos; harpseal; ConservativeLawyer
Great joke! Where did you get it???
92 posted on 02/20/2003 8:03:46 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com)
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To: Sloth
If SCOTUS declared a part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional, would it be?

How can I answer an unanswerable question? The SCOTUS can no more declare a part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional than it can declare white to be black.

Yes, a person can be declared legally dead by a court, but that doesn't change their metabolic condition. If a dead person is found to be living by a court, they're still dead.

The supposed conflict here is that you're using the same word for two different terms. If a person is declared legally dead, then they are dead for the purposes of the law. In fact, the courts themselves recognize that legally dead does not necessarily equal metabolically dead, so there's no conflict.

93 posted on 02/20/2003 8:06:04 AM PST by RonF
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To: groanup
You gotta love this quote about the post-Miller rulings...
"If you go and read the opinions, the reasoning in them is really quite abominable,"
And understand that this isn't coming from someone who can be called "pro-gun".
94 posted on 02/20/2003 8:07:10 AM PST by Redcloak (Jøìn thë Çøålìtìon tø Prëvënt the Åbûsë of Ûnnëçëssårìlÿ Lëngthÿ, Vërbøsë ånd Nønsënsìçål Tåg Lìnës)
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To: Skooz
I think one just needs to look at the Declaration of Independence to find out why the 2nd means what it says.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shallseem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

How would people do this withOUT guns?

95 posted on 02/20/2003 8:09:34 AM PST by OXENinFLA (Rights are like muscles EXERCISE THEM!!!)
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To: dark_lord
Essentially, the Court took the position that the militia clause provided guidance on the definition of the term "arms", and concluded that it meant "weapons of a type typically wielded by individual soldiers".
96 posted on 02/20/2003 8:10:50 AM PST by steve-b
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To: RonF; 45Auto; Joe Brower
When the Founding Fathers considered the issue of guns, they had no clue that anyone might be able to buy a gun that could kill a score of people in as many seconds.

Nice try. Guns in 1790 were much MORE deadly than they are today.

Any wound to the torso was fatal, usually resulting in lingering agonizing death. Many wounds to the limbs also resulted in slow agonzing death of a period of days, or at best an amputation that did not get septic, but usually did.

Today OTOH, gang bangers today are routinely shot and patched up and put back on the street in a week.

As far as "kill a score in as many seconds" that could also be done with a shotgun loaded with dirty shot. And the wounded would spend days screaming in agony as their infections raged. However, people rarely went on shooting rampages that I have ever seen recorded.

97 posted on 02/20/2003 8:14:05 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com)
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To: RonF
The SCOTUS can no more declare a part of the Constitution to be unconstitutional than it can declare white to be black.

The courts, up to and including the Supreme Court, have been known to hand down decisions that make about as much sense as declaring that white is black.

98 posted on 02/20/2003 8:14:18 AM PST by steve-b
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To: A Navy Vet
Wow! Gotta past and clip those
99 posted on 02/20/2003 8:14:20 AM PST by OXENinFLA (Rights are like muscles EXERCISE THEM!!!)
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To: RonF
When the Founding Fathers considered the issue of guns freedom of the press, they had no clue that anyone might be able to buy a gun computer that could kill spread a score of people subversive messages in as many seconds.
100 posted on 02/20/2003 8:18:02 AM PST by steve-b
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