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To: jimtorr
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
Thomas Jefferson.

Christianity is nowhere mentioned in our Constitution.

Let's leave religion to our Churches to promote.

"This nation is founded and based on a faith in God."

In God yes...not Jesus Christ.

The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

30 posted on 02/16/2003 6:48:37 AM PST by KDD
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To: KDD; jimtorr
Christianity is nowhere mentioned in our Constitution.

From Article VII
"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven..."

Just which LORD do you think they were referring to when they unanimously placed those words into our founding document?

35 posted on 02/16/2003 8:03:55 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: KDD
You are half right, at best. SOME of the Founders were Deists. To assert that they were all Deists is as much folly as saying they were all Bible believing Christins.

Here are a couple of quotes which, I am sure, have not made your list:

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." Alexander Hamilton

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry

37 posted on 02/16/2003 8:13:44 AM PST by Skooz (Tagline removed by moderator)
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To: KDD
Post # 30 was lifted from the American Atheists Inc. website.

http://home.att.net/~utahatheistnews/till.html

Do you even have an original thought?

Repent!
48 posted on 02/16/2003 9:46:15 AM PST by P-Marlowe (In the year of "OUR LORD"...)
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To: KDD
If you had any knowledge you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. Jefferson was a deist however he did believe in the Judeo Christian God. What he couldn't get him finite mind around was miracles. So he rewrote the Bible leaving out ALL miracles. It's called the Jefferson Bible. God only knows how he could believe in God who is capable of anything yet not believe in miracles. It's a contradiction. He was the only deist involved with our Constitution. If you read the writing by the founding fathers you can't mistake their firm belief in the Judeo Christian God. It is out in the open and unmistakable. What the Republic didn't want was a government required "religion" since history has shown it to be wrong and it doesn't align with the Judeo Christian Biblical teachings. Belief is a choice and not to be coerced by any mere mortal under ANY circumstances.
79 posted on 02/16/2003 11:34:01 AM PST by nmh
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To: KDD
"Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible."

I skimmed your idiotic reply and missed the above. How silly. Deists believe is ALL that except miracles which is silly since the DO believe in a Supreme Being. Maybe you should stop coping website, trying to steal credit for stupidity and start THINKING for a change.

80 posted on 02/16/2003 11:37:13 AM PST by nmh
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To: KDD
"Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible."

I skimmed your idiotic reply and missed the above. How silly. Deists believe IN ALL that except miracles which is silly since the DO believe in a Supreme Being. Maybe you should stop coping website, trying to steal credit for stupidity and start THINKING for a change.

81 posted on 02/16/2003 11:38:43 AM PST by nmh
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To: KDD
"The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible. "
__________________________________________________________________________________

What unadulterated bull hockey! As I just posted in another thread, deism never really caught on in America. It was fleetingly embraced only by a handful of non-founders during a very brief period in the 19th century. Jefferson, when accused of being a deist, hotly and indignantly denied it. And although Franklin's youthful flirtation with deism is well-known, his later repudiation of it is also no secret. Deists, as you know, don't believe in providence (divine intervention) and therefore don't believe in the utility of prayer. They also do not appeal to scriptural authority. Note Ben Franklin's speech to the Constitutional Convention, which follows --

    "The small progress we have made after four or five weeks' close attendance and continual reasonings with each other--our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ayes--is, methinks, a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the human understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those republics which, having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution, now no longer exist. And we have viewed modern states all round Europe, but find none of their constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

    "In this situation of this assembly, groping, as it were, in the dark, to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings. In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of dangers, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?

    "I have lived, sir, a long time, and, the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that 'Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.'

    "I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed, in this political building, no better than the builders of Babel. We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded; and we ourselves shall become a reproach and by-word down to future ages. And, what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

    "I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."

Sound like a "deist" to you? In just this one citation, we see Franklin referring repeatedly to divine intervention, calling for prayer and citing scriptural authority. Of the 55 men at the Constitutional Convention, a typical account of their faiths will show 28 Episcopalian (Anglican), 8 Presbyterian, 7 Congregationalist, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Lutheran, 2 Roman Catholic, etc. There was hardly a "deist" to be found among them, so your argument that the "primary" founders were "deists" is absurd. Did you know that in some states in 1789, you couldn't even hold public office if you were a deist? As early as the Great Awakening of the 1740s, deism was a distrusted and discredited relic of the French enlightenment, and as late as 1828, Noah Webster's definition of "deism" left no doubt about this.

92 posted on 02/16/2003 1:54:07 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: KDD; P-Marlowe
Here is an excerpt from a letter written by Jefferson to Charles Thompson, January 9, 1816 --

    "...I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature."

This, obviously, was not written by deist.
96 posted on 02/16/2003 2:38:02 PM PST by Bonaparte
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