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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
You still haven't answered my question, how does the big bang theory explain the information that exists now but did not formerly exist? Do you really believe that information just happens given the laws of chemistry and physics and a lot of time? Does the theory pedict it?

Friends, lurkers, countrymen: I've said something like the following on other threads, so if it looks familiar, it's the 2003 edition.

Rip another Big Bang, you may not get exactly earth, but if the initial event is similar enough, if the rules of physics are the same, you get another nice even cloud of hydrogen, helium, and a little lithium. Get that, and you'll get stars.

Get stars, and you'll get iron. The rules for the iron atom, the same in all the stars all over the sky, weren't in the gas cloud at the start of the universe, or its size. They're in the laws of physics. The properties of the iron atom and of its neighbor atoms in the periodic table have everything to do with why stars that go supernova do what they do and when. Supernovas seed interstellar space with heavy elements. Doing this allows the formation of second- and third-generation solar systems rich in heavy elements. (Solar systems, in other words, that can look like our own.)

Already in our scenario what most human minds perceive as order and complexity have greatly increased in the universe over that almost-uniform gas cloud. How things could happen from there on a particular sunny planet living in the energy flow between its star and the dark beyond don't have to be any more magical than what we have described already. Here's one scenario, genuinely conjectural but not magical, out of many which still vie for consideration.

1,364 posted on 03/05/2003 7:04:27 PM PST by VadeRetro (I pick conjectural-but-possible over magical at all times.)
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To: VadeRetro
VadeRetro wrote:
Already in our scenario what most human minds perceive as order and complexity have greatly increased in the universe over that almost-uniform gas cloud.

 I have no problem with that. But we differ in that I do not equate mere order and complexity with information. If you drop a thousand ball bearings into a container, there will be a high degree of order in their resultant positions. However, their orderly positions will contain no more information then before they were dropped. Similarly, there is a nice demonstration of bell curves in the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Steel balls are dropped through an array of pegs and collected in bins at the bottom. They nicely fall into a classic bell curve which is clearly more orderly then the pile they started from. But what information is stored in them by virtue of their shape? None at all.

I maintain that order and complexity are not the same as information.
1,392 posted on 03/06/2003 7:33:20 AM PST by Rachumlakenschlaff
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