Universal National Service Act of 2003

Universal service for males and females ages 18-26. New Senate Bill s.89. Can see it at http://thomas.loc.gov

Here's some info for you. It's not just liberals proposing such universal service:

On December 20, 2001, Representatives Nick Smith (R-MI) and Curt Weldon (R-PA) introduced a bill into the House of Representatives which would require the induction of all young men between the ages of 18-22 into the Armed Forces to receive basic military training and education for a period of up to one year. Young women in this age group would be permitted to volunteer.

I don't see anything in here about the non-military draft you were speaking of. From your previous post:

"Personally, I have no problem whatever with a Universal Service program. It needn't just be the military, but could apply to all sorts of programs.

What would you have me do: Distribute welfare checks? Act as an unpaid worker (slave) for the deficit-ridden post office? Road and bridge construction? Collective farms? This is exactly was the Soviets forced their subjects into doing.

"Excellent point. We rightly decry the leftist indoctrination in government schools. What makes anyone think that a government-run "service" program would be any different?"

Oh, I don't know. The military doesn't seem to be doing "leftist indoctrination," as you put it. What makes anyone think that a National Service program wouldn't perform like the military? Your argument doesn't hold water, I'm afraid, since there is a clear example of a "service" which does none of the things you say.

""Personally, I have no problem whatever with a Universal Service program. It needn't just be the military, but could apply to all sorts of programs.

What would you have me do: Distribute welfare checks? Act as an unpaid worker (slave) for the deficit-ridden post office? Road and bridge construction? Collective farms? This is exactly was the Soviets forced their subjects into doing."

I'm not laying out what the system should be. That would take months, and I just don't have the time. I wouldn't have _you_ do anything at all. You're past the age of 26, right?

It _could_ be just Universal Military service, if you like. That would be OK with me. But you're opposed to that as well, right?

Unless you are physically unfit for military service, I, for one, would submit that you still owe your country an unpaid debt for your freedom and security.

What would that include? You seem to be defending Mineralman's call for a draft for non-military applications. Sorry I don't owe this country my service in the peace corps.

"Unless you are physically unfit for military service, I, for one, would submit that you still owe your country an unpaid debt for your freedom and security.
"

Bingo! You served. I served. The guy at least owes _us_ an unpaid debt for his freedom and security. Who was it said that my service would have been better spent in the Red Army? Was it this guy?

Well, in any case, it wasn't in the Red Army. It was in the USAF. I paid that debt to the society which gave me liberty. However, that debt is never-ending, and we must pay it throughout our lives.

Some seem to believe it is only incumbent on _others_ to serve. I disagree.

"What would that include? You seem to be defending Mineralman's call for a draft for non-military applications. "

Please read above. I don't care if it's just military service. That would be fine with me. So, can I put you down for support for a Universal Military Service bill? Military training for every young man at some point between ages 18 and 26. I can go for that. It's a lot of folks, though, so I'd guess a lot of them would be in the Corps of Engineers, working on roads and other such things.

Now, one of the benefits of this Universal Training is that every young man would receive instructions in firearms handling. We could even require every male citizen of military age to keep and maintain a firearm in his home, as they do in Switzerland. Now that's keeping and bearing arms.

You must be for that, right?

I paid that debt to the society which gave me liberty.

Society didn't give you liberty. Nor did government. It was never theirs to give or take to begin with.

Liberty is yours as your birthright. It is an endowment by your Creator and as such is unalienable. Government and society only exist to protect it and uphold it.

The only debt you owe to society is to refrain from infringing upon others liberty, and to prevent others from doing so.

You may claim that conscription falls under the latter. If we were invaded to be subjected, you might be right. The War for Independence qualifies. But there hasn't been a war, save Afghanistan in our lifetimes that has been truly defensive. Instead we head off to other nations to deprive them of their free will and subject them to our rule. No man owe's a moment of his life for such endeavors.

We're not fixing the potholes now, are we?

Perhaps the city officials and voters have decided that doing so isn't worth the cost. How is it that you know better than them?

And who's saying Universal Service would be an unpaid position, anyhow?

By definition, it wouldn't pay what the job would be worth in a free market. If it did, there would be no need to compel service.

"I paid that debt to the society which gave me liberty.

Society didn't give you liberty. Nor did government. It was never theirs to give or take to begin with.

Liberty is yours as your birthright. It is an endowment by your Creator and as such is unalienable. Government and society only exist to protect it and uphold it. "

OK, let me put it another way: I paid that debt to the society which _PRESERVES_ my liberty. For it is only due to the service of those who have given their time and risked their lives that that liberty is preserved.

I helped preserve my liberty and _YOURS_ as well. If you cannot see that, I feel sorry for you. If my choice of words was faulty, that's my fault.

Universal military service is a fine way to educate our young men, and perhaps women, about the obligations to serve in the defense of liberty.

I'm not laying out what the system should be. That would take months, and I just don't have the time.

Great, you want mandated non-military service and you haven't even thought through the consequences of what you’re proposing. What would start out as a good intended program would inevitably degenerate into a means for politicians to gain even more power of the lives of the citizens. Surely there are people who are wasting their youth but who are you or anyone else to make the determination on what is best for that person? People doing everyday work and pursuing their dreams built this country. How could this be serving the country by taking a year or two of someone's most productive years and putting it into the hands of some inefficient bureaucracy.

I wouldn't have _you_ do anything at all. You're past the age of 26, right?

Not yet, but I'd probably be by the time this was implemented.

It _could_ be just Universal Military service, if you like. That would be OK with me. But you're opposed to that as well, right?

Re-read what I have written in previous posts

"Society didn't give you liberty. Nor did government. It was never theirs to give or take to begin with. "

I'll take it a little further. When my grandfather fought in WWI, and my father fought in WWII, they were fighting to keep my liberty and the liberty of the next generations intact. My grandfather fought in the trenches. My father flew B-17s over Germany. If you can denigrate their service, then there's something missing in your thinking.

When I came of age, I followed in my father's and grandfather's footsteps and joined the USAF. It was during the Vietnam war, in 1965. The Air Force decided that they'd send me to language school and to a base in Asia. I didn't fight anyone. That was the choice of the USAF. Apparently they thought my skills were better used in another way. So, I did what they sent me to do, and did it honestly and with vigor.

My grandfather defended liberty. My father defended liberty. I defended liberty. All of those who serve honorably in the military defend liberty. That's _YOUR_ liberty they're defending.

I see nothing wrong, and a great deal good, in requiring all young men to serve in that cause. Now, I have no problem with that service being done in non-military ways, but if that's a problem, then let's make it a universal military service. That's OK with me.

What's being asked by myself and a couple of others is what _you_ have done in the defense of liberty, and what others have done. If you have served, then you have my thanks. If not, then you have my suggestion that you carefully consider why not. It's not just _my_ job to defend liberty. It is the job of everyone.

I helped preserve my liberty and _YOURS_ as well.

I understand that you may have. And I know that certainly was your intention, and believe me I appreciate it. But suppose you were serving say, in Bosnia. How would that be protecting my liberty? Are Bosnians or Serbians trying to enslave me? Have they undermined the Bill of Rights? The last I checked, a full 100% of the numerous infringements of freedom we suffer today were inflicted at home, by ourselves, and the military has no say or influence on that.

There is a major fight for freedom to be had in America today, but it needs to be fought in the ballot box.

Universal military service is a fine way to educate our young men, and perhaps women, about the obligations to serve in the defense of liberty.

I think it would teach them at a young age that their lives are not their own. That they must submit to any authority that demands it. That the state is all powerful, and they are but cattle or a tool to serve its ends.

I would prefer a nation of young people that would find the concept of involuntary servitude so repulsive and repugnant, that death itself would be preferable, so much so that this generation would instill fear in any socialist self serving tyrant, foreign or domestic, who thought they had dominion over their lives.

Also, it's prohibited under the 9th and 10th amendments.

When's the last time the federal government gave a hoot about the 9th and 10th Amendments? It was before 1860. Welcome to the Empire, citizen. Pick up your name badge at your local 'volunteer' center and be prepared to set aside more of your time doing what the government wants you to do.

"I would prefer a nation of young people that would find the concept of involuntary servitude so repulsive and repugnant, that death itself would be preferable, so much so that this generation would instill fear in any socialist self serving tyrant, foreign or domestic, who thought they had dominion over their lives."

Well, I'll make a note not to count on you to serve. Oh well.

"I understand that you may have. And I know that certainly was your intention, and believe me I appreciate it. But suppose you were serving say, in Bosnia. How would that be protecting my liberty? Are Bosnians or Serbians trying to enslave me? Have they undermined the Bill of Rights? The last I checked, a full 100% of the numerous infringements of freedom we suffer today were inflicted at home, by ourselves, and the military has no say or influence on that. "

Every person who lives under tyranny is a threat to my liberty, freee. Every person. We had the former Soviet Union as our principal enemy for decades. The people there were not free, nor did they have liberty. We strived with the Soviets and ended up partly causing the end of the Soviet system.

Bosnia? Same thing, freee. The people of Bosnia had no liberty, and were a threat to liberty-loving people everywhere. It's not a direct, immediate threat, but a threat nonetheless.

Look beyond your small world, freee.

If you have served, then you have my thanks. If not, then you have my suggestion that you carefully consider why not.

I know exactly why not: my skills are better used elsewhere. There is more to our nation than its military. I have great respect for those who volunteer to serve in the armed forces, but I also have great respect for our innovators and business leaders who preserve our economic power. I'm over 26, but if I weren't your plan would yank me out of my productive software development job (which incidentally results in my paying far more than my "fair share" of taxes) and put me in a pseudo-military position where I would be both less capable and less motivated. Multiply this by a few million and you have substantially weakened the private sector while expanding the size of government. This is not something conservatives should support.

All of those who serve honorably in the military defend liberty.

If I remember correctly, the Constitution and Liberty was being threatened by liberals in this country for most of the last half of the last century. I think the people who opposed their efforts here did more to defend Liberty than I did in the Navy.

Well, I'll make a note not to count on you to serve. Oh well.

Not so fast.

What exactly is it you want me to do? Right now I can volunteer for the military, which is a blank check to do anything Hillary or King George or the others in government want. I'll never do that.

But, suppose we're attacked. Would I fight? Sure. Had I been on the 9-11 flight that crashed, you bet I'd have fought. That's service. Should I see some jihad fool trying to harm us, I'd do everything I could to stop them. That's service. And in the unlikely event that the US is physically invaded, I'd sign on for the duration.

But here's the catch: You have to _ask_ me. And I have to agree to what we're going to do. And I am only available for defense. Why should I do anything else?

And this idea of national service outside the military? That's outright slavery. And I'd have the same reaction I would if anyone tried to kidnap me and sell me into slavery. Trust me, I wouldn't go willingly or peacefully.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.