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Chapter Four, Freedom, Reason, and Tradition; The Constitution of Liberty
ISBN 0-226-32084-7, University of Chicago Press | 1960 | Friedrich A. Hayek

Posted on 02/04/2003 6:56:26 PM PST by KC Burke

Nothing is more fertile in prodigies than the art of being free; but there is nothing more arduous than the apprenticeship of liberty…Liberty is generally established with difficulty in the midst of storms; it is perfected by civil discords; and its benefit cannot be appreciated until it is already old.

A. de Tocqueville


CHAPTER FOUR

Sub-chapters 1 - 5
1. Though freedom is not a state of nature but an artifact of civilization, it did not arise from design. The institutions of freedom, like everything freedom has created, were not established because people foresaw the benefits they would bring. But, once its advantages were recognized, men began to perfect and extend the reign of freedom and, for that purpose, to inquire how a free society worked. This development of a theory of liberty took place mainly in the eighteenth century. It began in two countries, England and France. The first of these knew liberty; the second did not.

As a result, we have had to the present day two different traditions in the theory of liberty: one empirical and unsystematic, the other speculative and rationalistic –the first based on an interpretation of traditions and institutions which had spontaneously grown up and were but imperfectly understood, the second aiming at the construction of a utopia, which has often been tried but never successfully. Nevertheless, it has been the rationalistic, plausible, and apparently logical argument of the French tradition, with its flattering assumptions about the unlimited powers of human reason, that has progressively gained influence, while the less articulate and less explicit tradition of English freedom has been on the decline.

This distinction is obscured by the fact that what we have called the “French tradition” of liberty arose largely from an attempt to interpret British institutions and that the conceptions which other countries formed of British institutions were based mainly on their descriptions by French writers. The two traditions became finally confused when they merged in the liberal movement of the nineteenth century and when even leading British liberals drew as much on the French as on the British tradition. It was, in the end, the victory of the Benthamite Philosophical Radicals over the Whigs in England that concealed the fundamental difference which in more recent years has reappeared as the conflict between liberal democracy and “social” or totalitarian democracy.

This difference was better understood a hundred years ago than it is today. In the year of the European revolutions in which the two traditions merged, the contract between “Anglican” and “Gallican” liberty was still clearly described by an eminent German-American political philosopher. “Gallican Liberty,” wrote Francis Lieber in 1848, “is sought in the government, and according to an Anglican point of view, it is looked for in the wrong place, where it cannot be found. Necessary consequences of the Gallican view are, that the French look for the highest degree of political civilization in organization, that is, in the highest degree of interference by public power. The question whether this interference be despotism or liberty is decided solely by the fact who interferes, and for the benefit of which class the interference takes place, while according to the Anglican view this interference would always be either absolutism or aristocracy, and the present dictatorship of the ouvriers would appear to us an uncompromising aristocracy of the ouvriers.”

Since this was written, the French tradition has everywhere progressively displaced the English. To disentangle the two traditions it is necessary to look at the relatively pure forms in which they appeared in the eighteenth century. What we have called the “British Tradition” was made explicit mainly by a group of Scottish moral philosophers led by David Hume, Adam Smith and Adam Ferguson, seconded by their English contemporaries Josiah Tucker, Edmund Burke and William Paley, and drawing largely on a tradition rooted in the jurisprudent of the common law. Opposed to them was the tradition of the French Enlightenment, deeply imbued with Cartesian rationalism: the Encyclopedists and Rousseau, the Physiocrats and Condorcet, are their best know representatives. Of course, the division does not fully coincide with national boundries. Frenchmen, like Montesquieu and, later, Benjamin Constant and, above all, Alexis de Tocqueville are probably nearer to what we have called the “British” than to the “French” tradition. And in Thomas Hobbes, Britian as provided at least on e of the founders of rationalist tradition, not to speak of a whole generation of enthusiasts for the French Revolution, like Godwin, Priestly, Price, and Paine, who (like Jefferson after his stay in France) belong entirely to it.

2. Though these two groups are now commonly lumped together as ancestors of modern liberalism, there is hardly a greater contrast imaginable than that between their respective conceptions of the evolution and functioning of a social order and the role played in it by liberty. The difference is directly traceable to the predominance of an essentially empiricist view of the world in England and a rationalist approach in France. The main contrast in the practical conclusions to which these approaches led has recently been put, as follows: “One finds the essence of freedom in spontaneity and the absence of coercion, the other believes it to be realized only in the pursuit and attainment of an absolute collective purpose”, and “one stands for organic, slow, half-conscious growth, the other for doctrinaire deliberativeness; one for trail and error procedure, the other for an enforced solely valid pattern.” It is the second view, as J. L. Talmon has shown in an important book from which this description is taken, that has become the origin of totalitarian democracy.

The sweeping success of the political doctrines that stem from the French tradition is probably due to their great appeal to human pride and ambition. But we must not forget that the political conclusions of the two schools derive from the different conceptions of how society works. In this respect, the British philosophers laid the foundations of a profound and essentially valid theory, while the rationalist school was simply and completely wrong.

Those British philosophers have given us an interpretation of the growth of civilization that is still the indispensable foundation of the argument for liberty. They find the origin of institutions, not in contrivance or design, but in the survival of the successful. Their view is expressed in terms of “how nations stumble upon establishments which are indeed the result of human action but not the execution of human design.” It stresses that what we call political order is much less the product of our ordering intelligence than is commonly imagined. As their immediate successors saw it, what Adam Smith and his contemporaries did was “to resolve almost all that has been ascribed to positive institution into the spontaneous and irresistible development of certain obvious principles—and to show how little contrivance or political wisdom the most complicated and apparently artificial schemes of policy might have been erected.”

This “anti-rationalistic insight into historical happenings that Adam Smith shares with Hume, Adam Ferguson, and others” enabled them for the first time to comprehend how institutions and morals, language and law, have evolved by a process of cumulative growth and that it is only with and within this framework that human reason has grown and can successfully operate. Their argument is directed throughout against the Cartesian conception of an independently and antecedently existing human reason that invented these institutions and against the conception that civil society formed by some wise original legislator or an original “social contract.” The latter idea of intelligent men coming together for deliberation about how to make the world anew is perhaps the most characteristic outcome of thos design theories. It found its perfect expression when the leading theorist of the French Revolution, Abbe Sieyes, exhorted the revolutionary assembly “to act like men just emerging from the state of nature and coming together for the purpose of signing a social contract.”

The ancients understood the conditions of liberty better than that. Cicero quotes Cato as saying that the Roman constitution was superior to that of other states because it “was based upon the genius, not of one man, but of many: it was founded, not in one generation, but in a long period of several centuries and many ages of men. For, said he, there never has lived a man possessed of so great a genius that nothing could escape him, nor could the combined powers of all men living at one time possibly make all the necessary provisions for the future without the aid of actual experience and the test of time.” Neither republican Rome not Athens – the tow free nations of the ancient world—could thus serve as and example for rationalists. For Descartes, the fountainhead of the rationalist tradition, it was indeed Sparta that provided the model; for her greatness “was due not the pre-eminence of each of its laws in particular…but to the circumstance that, originated by a single individual, they all tended to the same end.” And it was Sparta which became the ideal of liberty for Rousseau as well as for Robespierre and Saint-Just and for most of the later advocates of “social” or totalitarian democracy.

Like the ancient, the modern British conception of liberty grew against the background of a comprehension, first achieved by the lawyers, of how institutions had developed. “There are many things specifically in laws and governments,” wrote Chief Justice Hale in the seventeenth century in a critique of Hobbes, “that mediately, remotely and consequentially are reasonable to be approved, though the reason of the party does not presently or immediately and distinctly see its reasonableness…Long experience makes more discoveries touching conveniences or inconveniences of laws than is possible for the wisest council of men at first to foresee. And that those amendments and supplements that through the various experiences of wise and knowing men have been applied to any law must needs be better suited to the convenience of laws, than the best invention of the most pregnant wits not aided by such a series and tract of experience…This add to the difficulty of the present fathoming of the reason of laws, which, though it commonly be called the mistress of fools, yet certainly it is the wisest expedient among mankind, and discovers those defects and supplies which no wit of man could either at once foresee or aptly remedy…It is not necessary that the reasons of the institution should be evident unto us. It is sufficient that they are instituted laws that give a certainty to us, and it is reasonable to observe them though the particular reason of the institution appear not.”

3. From these conceptions gradually grew a body of social theory that showed how, in the relations among men, complex and orderly and, in a very definite sense, purposive institutions might grow up which owed little to design, which were not invented but arose from the separate action of many men who did nto know what they were doing. This demonstration that something greater than man’s individual mind may grow from men’s fumbling efforts represented in some ways an even greater challenge to all design theories than even the later theory of biological evolution. For the first time it was shown that an evident order which was not the product of designing human intelligence, but that there was a third possibility—the emergence of order as the result of adaptive evolution.

Since the emphasis we shall have to place on the role that selection plays in this process of social evolution today is likely to create the impression that we are borrowing the idea from biology, it is worth stressing that it was from the theories of social evolution that Darwin and his contemporaries derived the suggestion for their theories. Indeed, one of those Scottish philosophers who first developed these ideas anticipated Darwin even in the biological field, and later application of these conceptions by the various “historical schools” in law and language rendered the idea that similarity of structure might be accounted for by a common origin a common place in the study of social phenomena long before it was applied to biology. It is unfortunate that at a later date the social sciences, instead of building on these beginnings in their own field, re-imported some of these ideas from biology and with them brought in such conceptions as “natural selection,” “struggle for existence,” and “survival of the fittest,’ which are not appropriate in their field; for in social evolution, the decisive factor is not the selection of the physical and inherited properties of the individuals but the selection by imitation of successful institutions and habits. Though this operates also through the success of individuals and groups, what emerges is not an inheritable attribute of individuals, but ideas and skills – in short, the whole cultural inheritance which is passed on by learning and imitation.

4. A detailed comparison of the two traditions would require a separate book; here we can merely single out a few of the crucial points on which they differ.

While the rationalist tradition assumes that man was originally endowed with both the intellectual and moral attributes that enabled him to fashion civilization deliberately, the evolutionists made it clear that civilization was the accumulated hard-earned result of trial and error; that it was the sum of experience, in part handed from generation to generation as explicit knowledge, but to a larger extent embodied in tools and institutions which had proved themselves superior—institutions whose significance we might discover by analysis, but which will also serve men’s ends without men’s understanding them. The Scottish theorists were very much aware of how delicate this artificial structure of civilization was which rested upon man’s more primitive and ferocious instincts being tamed and checked by institutions that he neither had designed not could control. They were very far from holding such naïve views, later unjustly laid at the door of their liberalism, as the “natural goodness of man,” the existence of “a natural harmony of interests,” or the beneficent effects of “natural liberty” (even though they did sometimes use the last phrase). They knew that it required the artifices of institutions and traditions to reconcile the conflicts of interest. Their problem was “that universal mover in human nature, self love, may receive such direction in this case (as in all others) as to promote the public interest by those efforts it shall make towards pursuing its own.” It was not “natural liberty” in any literal sense, but the institutions evolved to secure “life, liberty, and property,” which made these individual efforts beneficial. Not Locke, nor Hume, nor Smith, nor Burke, could have argued, as Bentham did, that “every law is an evil for every law is an infraction of liberty.” Their argument was never a complete laissez faire argument, which, as the very words show, is also part of the French rationalist tradition and in its literal sense was never defended by any of the English classical economists. They knew better than most of their later critics that it was not some sort of magic, but the evolution of “well constructed institutions,” where the “rules and privileges of contending interests and compromised advantages” would be reconciled, that had successfully channeled individual efforts to socially beneficial aims. In fact, their argument was never antistate as such, or anarchistic, which is the logical outcome of the rationalistic laissez faire doctrine; it was an argument that accounted both for the proper functions of the state and for the limits of state action.

The difference is particularly conspicuous in the respective assumptions of the two schools concerning individual human nature. The rationalistic design theories were necessarily based on the assumption of the individual man’s propensity for rational action and his natural intelligence and goodness. The evolutionary theory, on the contrary, showed how certain institutional arrangements would induce man to use his intelligence to the best effect and how institutions could be framed so that bad people could do least harm. The antirationalist tradition is here closer to the Christian tradition of the fallibility and sinfulness of man, while the perfectionism of the rationalist is in irreconcilable conflict with it. Even such a celebrated figment as the “economic man’ was not an original part of the British evolutionary tradition. It would be only a slight exaggeration to say that, in the view of those British philosophers, man was by nature lazy and indolent, improvident and wasteful, and that it was only by the force of circumstances that he could be made to behave economically or could learn carefully to adjust his means to his ends. The homo oeconomicus was explicitly introduced, with much else that belongs in the rationalist rather than the evolutionary tradition, only by the younger Mill.

5. The greatest difference between the two views, however, is in their respective ideas about the role of traditions and the value of all the other product of unconscious growth proceeding throughout the ages. It would hardly be unjust to say that the rationalistic approach is here opposed to almost all that is the distinct product of liberty and that gives liberty its value. Those who believe that all useful institutions are deliberate contrivances and who cannot conceive of anything serving a human purpose that has not been consciously designed are almost of necessity enemies of freedom. For them freedom means chaos.

To the empiricist evolutionary tradition, on the other hand, the value of freedom consists mainly in the opportunity that it provides for the growth of the undesigned, and the beneficial functioning of a free society rests largely on the existence of such freely grown institutions. There probably never has existed a genuine belief in freedom, and there certainly has been no successful attempt to operate a free society, without a genuine reverence for grown institutions, for customs and habits and “all those securities of liberty which arise from regulation of long prescription and ancient ways.” Paradoxial as it may appear, it is probably true that a successful free society will always in a large measure be a tradition-bound society.

This esteem for tradition and custom, of grown institutions, and of rules whose origins and rationale we do not know does not, of course, mean – as Thomas Jefferson believed with a characteristic rationalist misconception – that we “ascribe to men of preceding age a wisdom more than human, and… suppose what they did beyond amendment.” Far from assuming that those who created the institutions were wiser than we are, the evolutionary view is based on the insight that the result of the experimentation of many generations may embody more experience than any on man possesses.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: hayek; libertarians; whig
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To: KC Burke
Will check it out - thanks!

81 posted on 03/23/2003 10:18:43 PM PST by missileboy (Principio Obstate - Resist from the Beginning)
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To: KC Burke
As a result, we have had to the present day two different traditions in the theory of liberty: one empirical and unsystematic, the other speculative and rationalistic –the first based on an interpretation of traditions and institutions which had spontaneously grown up and were but imperfectly understood, the second aiming at the construction of a utopia, which has often been tried but never successfully. Nevertheless, it has been the rationalistic, plausible, and apparently logical argument of the French tradition, with its flattering assumptions about the unlimited powers of human reason, that has progressively gained influence, while the less articulate and less explicit tradition of English freedom has been on the decline.
I see that Hayek has already been where I was going with my thoughts earlier today, KC. :-)

We really need a rebirth of the wisdom of these guys. Their thoughts and words and insights need amplifying echos.

82 posted on 04/24/2003 8:33:39 AM PDT by William McKinley (You're so vain, you probably think this tagline's about you)
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To: KC Burke
They have certain ideological "rationality" that puts them at odds with all of Chapter Four.
Spot on, except not quite at odds with all of Chapter Four. The adherence to the ideology above the empirical is similar to the divergence between the English and French constructs of liberty that Hayek delineates so well early in Chapter Four.

At the risk of opening a can of worms and causing a bit of a fight, I want to look at a specific case. Joe Sobran. His ideological rationality has taken him places to where his views are no longer supported by the empirical. I think this is what has driven him, and others of similar ideology, towards Historical Revisionism. Since reality spits in the eye of some of the ideology, the reality must be denied, revised, redefined away. The rise of fascism (and other totalitarian threats) in the age of modern warfare and weapons and the shrinking globe have really damaged the conservative arguments for isolationism. Whereas before, isolationists could point to history as being essentially a wellspring of examples in support of the isolationist mentality, World War II and the Holocaust became two prime examples of the risk of non-interventionism, and appeasement in the face of aggression. Those isolationists of a conservative mindset, who need by their very nature to have the empirical support their ideology, faced a choice- change the ideology or deny the empirical. Sadly, some have chosen the latter.

And we see the label neo-con being thrown around with abandon, and its definition being expanded to mean anyone who doesn't adhere to a strict paleoconservative ideology. It isn't the neoconservatives who have strayed from the conservative barn; the neoconservatives base their philosophy on what they have gleaned from experience. They believe that modern history has shown the threat from communism, from terrorism, from totalitarianism, and that it must be attacked head on. If they are right or wrong is another issue, but since it is based on rational views of reality and history it is a conservative view. The paleoconservatives who see the threat and acknowledge it but simply disagree on the risk of intervention as oppposed to nonintervention also hold a conservative view. The conservative mindset allows for both views.

Those on either side of the fight who adhere to an ideology regardless of the lessons of history, who are anti-war (or pro-war) regardless of circumstance, are not conservatives. They are ideologues of the left or right.

83 posted on 04/24/2003 11:13:01 AM PDT by William McKinley (You're so vain, you probably think this tagline's about you)
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To: missileboy
The antirationalist tradition is here closer to the Christian tradition of the fallibility and sinfulness of man, while the perfectionism of the rationalist is in irreconcilable conflict with it.

I enjoyed reading this thread, and your post in particular.

The fallibility of man leads to the rational conclusion that no man or human institution should be given much power. The founders of American government came from both the "irrational" and the "rational" schools of thought. In my opinion, they were able to work together because the "irrationalists" dervied conclusions (the fallibility of man) that matched the principles of the rationalists. That those shared conclusions and principles matched the revelation of God explains why the founder's joint efforts led to the most prosperous nation on earth to date.

I think it also needs saying that admitting that our society is founded on judeo-christian thought does not mean that government is to be the tool to force morality on others (apart from this idea of natural law, that is which is morality, from the Ten Commandments) - we may disagree here. It is not that I believe in moral relativism; quite the opposite is true. It is the overall effect that I am looking at.

Take the War on Drugs, for example...

You may find this "rationalist" thread of interest. That many "irrationalists" come to the same conclusion should be no surprise---when God's precepts are put into action, blessings follow.

84 posted on 11/21/2003 4:46:39 PM PST by Tares
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To: All
It is time to add the next two subchapters from chapter four:

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6. We have already considered the various institutions and habits, tools and methods of doing things, which have emerged from this process and constitute our inherited civilization. But we have yet to look at those rules of conduct which have grown as part of it, which are both a product and a condition of freedom. Of these conventions and customs of human intercourse, the moral rules are the most important but by no means the only significant ones. We understand one another and get along with one another, are able to act successfully on our plans, because, most of the time, members of our civilization conform to unconscious patterns of conduct, show a regularity in their actions that is not the result of commands or coercion, often not even of any conscious adherence to known rules, but of firmly established habits and traditions. The general observance of these conventions is a necessary condition of the orderliness of the world in which we live, of our being able to find our way in it, though we do not know their significance and may not even be consciously aware of their existence. In some instances it would be necessary, for the smooth running of society, to secure a similar uniformity by coercion, if such conventions or rules were not observed often enough. Coercion, then, may sometimes be avoidable only because a high degree of voluntary conformity exists, which means that voluntary conformity may be a condition of a beneficial working of freedom. It is indeed a truth, which all the great apostles of freedom outside the rationalistic school have never tired of emphasizing, that freedom has never worked without deeply ingrained moral beliefs and that coercion can be reduced to a minimum only where individuals can be expected as a rule to conform voluntarily to certain principles.

There is an advantage in obedience to such rules not being coerced, not only because coercion as such is bad, but because it is, in fact, often desirable that rules should be observed only in most instances and that the individual should be able to transgress them when it seems to him worthwhile to incur the odium which this will cause. It is also important that the strength of the social pressure and of the force of habit which insures their observance is variable. It is this flexibility of voluntary rules which in the field of morals makes gradual evolution and spontaneous growth possible, which allows further experience to lead to modifications and improvements. Such an evolution is possible only with rules which are neither coercive nor deliberately imposed-rules which, though observing them is regarded as merit and though they will be observed by the majority, can be broken by individuals who feel that they have strong enough reasons to brave the censure of their fellows. Unlike any deliberately imposed coercive rules, which can be changed only discontinuously and for all at the same time, rules of this kind allow for gradual and experimental change. The existence of individuals and groups simultaneously observing partially different rules provides the opportunity for the selection of the more effective ones.

It is this submission to undesigned rules and conventions whose significance and importance we largely do not understand, this reverence for the traditional, that the rationalistic type of mind finds so uncongenial, though it is indispensable for the working of a free society. It has its foundation in the insight which David Hume stressed and which is of decisive importance for the antirationalist, evolutionary tradition -- namely, that "the rules of morality are not the conclusions of our reason." Like all other values, our morals are not a product but a presupposition of reason, part of the ends which the instrument of our intellect has been developed to serve. At any one stage of our evolution, the system of values into which we are born supplies the ends which our reason must serve. This givenness of the value frame-work implies that, although we must always strive to improve our institutions, we can never aim to remake them as a whole and that, in our efforts to improve them, we must take for granted much that we do not understand. We must always work inside a framework of both values and institutions which is not of our own making. In particular, we can never synthetically construct a new body of moral rules or make our obedience of the known rules dependent on our comprehension of the implications of this obedience in a given instance.

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7. The rationalistic attitude to these problems is best seen in its views on what it calls "superstition."" I do not wish to underestimate the merit of the persistent and relentless fight of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries against beliefs which are demonstrably false." But we must remember that the extension of the concept of superstition to all beliefs which are not demon-strably true lacks the same justification and may often be harmful. That we ought not to believe anything which has been shown to be false does not mean that we ought to believe only what has been demonstrated to be true. There are good reasons why any person who wants to live and act successfully in society must accept many common beliefs, though the value of these reasons may have little to do with their demonstrable truth." Such beliefs will also be based on some past experience but not on experience for which anyone can produce the evidence. The scientist, when asked to accept a generalization in his field, is of course entitled to ask for the evidence on which it is based. Many of the beliefs which in the past expressed the accumulated experience of the race have been disproved in this manner. This does not mean, however, that we can reach the stage where we can dispense with all beliefs for which such scientific evidence is lacking. Experience comes to man in many more forms than are commonly recognized by the professional experimenter or the seeker after explicit knowledge. We would destroy the foundations of much successful action if we disdained to rely on ways of doing things evolved by the process of trial and error simply because the reason for their adoption has not been handed down to us. The appropriateness of our conduct is not necessarily dependent on our knowing why it is so. Such understanding is one way of making our conduct appropriate, but not the only one. A sterilized world of beliefs, purged of all elements whose value could not be positively demonstrated, would probably be not less lethal than would an equivalent state in the biological sphere.

While this applies to all our values, it is most important in the case of moral rules of conduct. Next to language, they are perhaps the most important instance of an undesigned growth, of a set of rules which govern our lives but of which we can say neither why they are what they are nor what they do to us: we do not know what the consequences of observing them are for us as individuals and as a group. And it is against the demand for submission to such rules that the rationalistic spirit is in Constant revolt. It insists on applying to them Descartes's principle which was "to reject as absolutely false all opinions in regard to which I could suppose the least ground for doubt."" The desire of the rationalist has always been for the deliberately con-structed, synthetic system of morals, for the system in which, as Edmund Burke has described it, "the practice of all moral duties, and the foundations of society, rested upon their reasons made clear and demonstrative to every individual. The rationalists of the eighteenth century, indeed, explicitly argued that, since they knew human nature, they "could easily find the morals which suited it." They did not understand that what they called "human nature" is very largely the result of those moral conceptions which every individual learns with language and thinking.

85 posted on 01/13/2004 10:56:24 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: Bonaparte; cornelis; Askel5; betty boop; TroutStalker; Sam Cree; VadeRetro
See post 85 for a continuation of the chapter.
86 posted on 01/13/2004 10:59:58 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: Snuffington; amom; illstillbe; ouroboros; annalex; IronJack; Dumb_Ox; fod; Liberal Classic
See 85
87 posted on 01/13/2004 11:03:49 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: Snuffington; amom; illstillbe; ouroboros; annalex; IronJack; Dumb_Ox; fod; Liberal Classic
See 85
88 posted on 01/13/2004 11:04:25 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: missileboy
it was started in answer to a question of yours, so see the continuation in 85 when you can
89 posted on 01/13/2004 11:07:14 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: JasonC; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; tpaine; unspun; annalex; LibTeeth; GovernmentShrinker
see the continuation of the chapter in 85 if you are interested

some of you participated or were pinged in the original

sorry for the double ping above but I am getting a lot of 'server error' messages today
90 posted on 01/13/2004 11:10:26 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: Free the USA; Hank Kerchief; KayEyeDoubleDee; William McKinley; HumanaeVitae
please see 85
91 posted on 01/13/2004 11:12:09 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: independentmind; Tares
please see 85

To All:
I will try to add the last subchapters as I am able....should take one more update, thanks.

92 posted on 01/13/2004 11:14:46 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: independentmind; Tares
please see 85

To All:
I will try to add the last subchapters as I am able....should take one more update, thanks.

93 posted on 01/13/2004 11:15:01 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
I don't recall what Russell Kirk says about Hayek, but I'll defer to his judgment. While I agree with much of The Road to Serfdom, it's been at least a quarter of a century since I've read it, so I can't comment intelligently on Hayek's overall philosophy. But this post would certainly seem more in keeping with Burkean conservatism than libertarianism. If, as Hayek herein contends, names matter anyway.
94 posted on 01/13/2004 2:33:51 PM PST by IronJack
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To: IronJack
Kirk, like Hayek, classified himself as essentially "Old Whig".

It has struck me originally that many that are counted in the Libertarian ranks, or who even call themselves libertairian (such as Sowell), do so instead of the more obscure term of Old Whig. That was what prompted me to urge those calling Hayek a liberterian, as opposed to a conservative, to read the fourth chapter of this book.

It supports what I have often pointed out. If you take the great minds of our side of the political spectrum: Weaver, Kirk, Hayek, Buckley, Meyer, the elder Kristol, Sowell, Nisbet and others, they agree on 95% of their principles and the differences here are minor scirmishes on the 5% and of little import.

95 posted on 01/13/2004 2:46:43 PM PST by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
I know Kirk always respected the Old Whig mentality, and I've always fancied that the Founders were 95 percent (Whig) conservative and a healthy 5 percent libertarian. I don't see in them any of the perverted socialism that masquerades under the label "liberal."
96 posted on 01/13/2004 3:12:54 PM PST by IronJack
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To: IronJack
I can't comment intelligently on Hayek's overall philosophy. But this post would certainly seem more in keeping with Burkean conservatism than libertarianism.
94 -IJ-


____________________________________


See my post here at #71, -- as to why Hayek tended to diguise his libertarian leanings..


97 posted on 01/13/2004 3:16:40 PM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but FRs flying monkey squad brings out the Rickenbacher in me.)
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To: KC Burke
It is also illustrative to note that Hayek explores the dichotomy between the American Revolution, whose approach to liberty derived from its English antecedents, and the French Revolution, whose radical egalitarianism spawned a system far more sanguine than the one it overthrew, although one nominally more "equal."

Kirk insists that the difference arose out of the English respect for tradition and order, while the French are blinded by ideological zeal. Conservation of order and a reverence for tradition kept the American Revolution from decaying into the murderous revolt of the Jacobins, and marked a departure from the mythical Divine Right of Kings but an acknowledgement of Man's inherent unworthiness to rule himself. In denying those caveats, the French rushed headlong into an orgy of self-destruction that many argue continues to this day.

It would seem Hayek is in agreement with the premise that tradition and custom bind rights more than any inherent sense of liberty.

98 posted on 01/13/2004 3:21:58 PM PST by IronJack
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To: KC Burke
That was what prompted me to urge those calling Hayek a liberterian, as opposed to a conservative, to read the fourth chapter of this book.

Are you aware that Hayek, in one of his books, actually inlcuded an essay named "Why I Am Not a Conservative"?

99 posted on 01/13/2004 3:36:27 PM PST by independentmind
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To: IronJack
In all of the Whiggish thinkers, we see a respect for Order as the initiator of true Liberty.

Kirk like the terms "custom, convention and continuity" claiming that: "Order and justice and freedom, they believe , are the artifical products of a long social experience, the result of centuries of trial and reflection and sacrifice."

I think, the thing I have noted and studied about the French Revolution was the dieifing of Individual Will -- with the State then meant to be the extension of that Will. This false road leads forever onward, even to Marx and others.

I have some links at the first of the thread to a couple of old threads where various thinkers we are mentioning are discussed on a thoughtful level. As I recall, Burke and Hayek are compared on one fine one that was posted by Cornelis.

In my post at 85, we get the sense that Hayek, in Chapter Four is moving on from just simple tradition versus rationality and on into the roots of ethics and morals themselves and the uses of rationality in general. He is as we shall see in the next sub-chapters.

But here, in 6 and 7 he is suggesting the role of "individual intelligence" is a poor substitute for rules "evolved by (a right functioning) society". It is really interesting to see a non-religous thinker begin to illustrate that fixed moral virtues, by-and-large religiously based, is the true modifier and source the storehouse of knowledge that must be used instead of individual rationality.

This Chapter, as I hope is evident by the time I have added the last three subchapters, is a masterwork of explaining the basis of general conservative principles.

100 posted on 01/13/2004 3:57:43 PM PST by KC Burke
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