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Observation on TPS damage on Orbiter
NASA photos | 2-3-03 | BoneMccoy

Posted on 02/04/2003 1:34:19 AM PST by bonesmccoy

In recent days the popular media has been focusing their attention on an impact event during the launch of STS-107. The impact of External Tank insulation and/or ice with the Orbiter during ascent was initially judged by NASA to be unlikely to cause loss of the vehicle. Obviously, loss of the integrity of the orbiter Thermal Protection System occured in some manner. When Freepers posted the reports of these impacts on the site, I initially discounted the hypothesis. Orbiters had sustained multiple impacts in the past. However, the size of the plume in the last photo gives me pause.

I'd like to offer to FR a few observations on the photos.

1. In this image an object approximately 2-3 feet appears to be between the orbiter and the ET.

2. In this image the object appears to have rotated relative to both the camera and the orbiter. The change in image luminosity could also be due to a change in reflected light from the object. Nevertheless, it suggests that the object is tumbling and nearing the orbiter's leading edge.

It occurs to me that one may be able to estimate the size of the object and make an educated guess regarding the possible mass of the object. Using the data in the video, one can calculate the relative velocity of the object to the orbiter wing. Creating a test scenario is then possible. One can manufacture a test article and fire ET insulation at the right velocity to evaluate impact damage on the test article.

OV-101's port wing could be used as a test stand with RCC and tile attached to mimic the OV-102 design.

The color of the object seems inconsistent with ET insulation. One can judge the ET color by looking at the ET in the still frame. The color of the object seems more consistent with ice or ice covered ET insulation. Even when accounting for variant color hue/saturation in the video, the object clearly has a different color characteristic from ET insulation. If it is ice laden insulation, the mass of the object would be significantly different from ET insulation alone. Since the velocity of the object is constant in a comparison equation, estimating the mass of the object becomes paramount to understanding the kinetic energy involved in the impact with the TPS.

3. In this image the debris impact creates a plume. My observation is that if the plume was composed primarily of ET insulation, the plume should have the color characteristics of ET insulation. This plume has a white color.

Unfortunately, ET insulation is orange/brown in color.

In addition, if the relative density of the ET insulation is known, one can quantify the colorimetric properties of the plume to disintegrating ET insulation upon impact.

Using the test article experiment model, engineers should fire at the same velocity an estimated mass of ET insulation (similar to the object seen in the still frame) at the test article. The plume should be measured colorimetrically. By comparing this experimental plume to the photographic evidence from the launch, one may be able to quantify the amount of ET insulation in the photograph above.

4. In this photo, the plume spreads from the aft of the orbiter's port wing. This plume does not appear to be the color of ET insulation. It appears to be white.

This white color could be the color of ice particles at high altitude.

On the other hand, the composition of TPS tiles under the orbiter wings is primarily a low-density silica.

In the photo above, you can see a cross section of orbiter TPS tile. The black color of the tile is merely a coating. The interior of the tile is a white, low-density, silica ceramic.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: columbiaaccident; nasa; shuttle; sts; sts107
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To: wirestripper; XBob; Budge; All
It really bugs me when the managers responsible for the Columbia & crew's destruction kept saying "It's nobody's fault" when it's clear *they* are the root of the problem.


Something interesting about "Crater". I think yet a clearer picture of lost history/engineering-instituional knowledge by the wholesale dumping of NASA's experienced Engineering staff for the sake of NASA politics...

..and again, management choosing to ignore bad news (the extreme damage caused by large foam impacts) by taking no apparent action to publish warnings about large-foam lethality.


From:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/columbiatrans.shtml

NARRATOR: In other words Crater said Columbia should come home safely. But a computer program is only as good as the information fed in to it. Investigators have discovered that the experiments on which Crater was based had one serious flaw.

HENRY McDONALD: We now know that not all of the results were entered in to the Crater computer program.

NARRATOR: The problem was that they had only taken in to account the damage caused by very small pieces of foam.

PAUL FISCHBECK: They had fired larger pieces of debris to see what would happen and they found that
it did so much damage to the tiles they actually couldn’t measure what was going on, so they stopped doing that.

HENRY McDONALD: The Crater computer program is not really applicable to large foam impact strikes.

NARRATOR: The piece of foam that had hit Columbia was vastly bigger than anything used when Crater was designed.


and remember this, from:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/5241209.htm?1c http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/903020/posts?page=13#13

...NASA Space Shuttle Program Manager, got together (about 3 years ago) with the new (at that time) Boeing Program Manager, Mike Mott. Dittemore basically directed Mott to have Boeing's Program Management and Design Center move from California (Huntington Beach, formally Downey) to Houston. Mott being new to the Program and not wanting to piss off his counterpart (Dittemore), took off and directed all of us that our jobs would be moving to Houston within the next 2 years...

...out of the 1200 highly skilled Shuttle engineering personnel that had been working on the Program over the last 20 years, only 11% of those people actually moved to Houston ... there was a thermal analysis done, but it was done by a group of Boeing thermal analysis engineers that had just been recently hired (within the last year) ...

... on average, these 11% probably had lesser engineering skills and had more difficulty finding other work than the 89% who didn't want to move to Texas, a move which turned into a true decimation strike to NASA's competent engineering team, should NASA management be commended for this???


...and even more experienced engineering jobs were "re-located/lost" later on, from:
http://www.floridacapitalnews.com/legislature/stories/020228space.html


Feb. 28, 2002 NASA's decision to move space shuttle work out of California and to Florida has launched a boxing match between the states.

In one corner, U.S. Rep. Bill Thomas, R-California, and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, is demanding NASA account for the move that will take hundreds of high-paying jobs and millions of dollars in federal spending out of Palmdale, Calif.

"California members of Congress need to know what information NASA used to make their decision on the proposed move," Thomas said Wednesday. ...

The decision to move space shuttle maintenance out of Palmdale, Calif., where the shuttle was born, was declared Feb. 5 by NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe in a surprise visit to Tallahassee...

O'Keefe, new at the helm, said simply that after years of study, the move's time had come... O'Keefe had been at shuttle operations in Palmdale just days before, but officials there said they were kept in the dark about the decision.

Though O'Keefe said moving shuttle repairs to the launch pad will save millions of dollars, he said he could not provide an exact figure and estimates from NASA's press offices have varied. Thomas said Wednesday that NASA refuses to give him details of the Florida move...

The space agency also has failed to respond to the same request, made repeatedly over the past month, by Gannett News Service. At one point, NASA spokesman Duane Brown said he did not know what, if any, of the records were public.

Brown did not return telephone calls Tuesday and Wednesday, as space flight specialists prepared for launch of the Spaceship Columbia, now pushed to Friday morning by unseasonably cold weather.


Looks like management was too busy destroying their experienced engineering staff and shuttles to answer the phone...

and instead of saving "millions of dollars" NASA management destroyed a multi-*billion* dollar shuttle and crew, should NASA management be commended for this as well???


4,361 posted on 05/29/2004 6:29:26 PM PDT by computermechanic
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To: All

Sorry, the 2 separate links about NASA management's terrible decision to enforce a huge loss of NASA's experienced engineering staff, got put together:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/5241209.htm?1c


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/903020/posts?page=13#13


4,362 posted on 05/29/2004 6:38:08 PM PDT by computermechanic
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To: computermechanic
"I think yet a clearer picture of lost history/engineering-instituional knowledge by the wholesale dumping of NASA's experienced Engineering staff for the sake of NASA politics..."

In aerospace (especially federal aerospace) there is another problem, in that neither civil servants nor commercial managers have a genuine appreciation that -- due to experience -- a 20-year engineer who "costs" 25% more, just might provide better overall "value" than a 10-year engineer. During the last decade federal aerospace orgs have been exuberant in jettisoning seasoned 20+ year engineers for "cheaper" junior engineers who really aren't that much cheaper even in real $, let alone when the "value" equation is considered (which rarely happens).

Example: seasoned aerospace engineers predicted that a well-known interceptor program would have a major problem with flex dynamics (body bending). They were essentially shouted out of the room, and jettisoned from the program, by the juniors who were rushing to fill their shoes. Management essentially supported the juniors in this and muzzled the seniors. The seniors were later proven right (surprise, surprise) but few had survived the cost cutting cycles, and none were ever "thanked" for being right. For what it's worth, I was one of the juniors, who said we should listen to the seniors, but nobody wanted to hear that. That little "cost saving" episode cost the government at minimum hundreds of millions in future "bandaids." But like one of my bosses said later, "it's white collar welfare," so that must make it all OK.

4,363 posted on 05/31/2004 8:43:22 PM PDT by Resolute
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To: computermechanic

4349-"I was thinking that maybe something simple like a large amount of simple concrete might be good to pour into a large hole in the Thermal Protection System.'

Interesting idea, and this is way out of my area of expertice, we really need a civil engineer, however, I do know that to cure concrete takes several days and the temperatures must be within a certain range. I think, up north in yankee land, they can't pour when it gets too cold, and I KNOW down south it sometimes gets too hot. In fact, when I was working in Saudi Arabia, we had to construct and complete our ICE plant before we completed our concrete batch plant, because we needed to cool the concrete with ice while making it, or else it was no good.


4,364 posted on 06/02/2004 2:50:32 PM PDT by XBob
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To: wirestripper; computermechanic; snopercod; RadioAstronomer

4359 - "I totally agree with your thoughts about the "nothing we could or can do" statement. It is not productive."

I am getting to the point, as screwed up as NASA is, that the politically correct women's lib movement has succeded in screwing it up even more.

And the "can do" attitude has been replaced by the feminist "mothing we can do" attitude.

So, the attitude of "if you don't do something" you will die, of men/military, has been replaced by the "well, since we can't do anything, lay back and enjoy it", attitude of women and rape.

We now have two women in charge, who didn't do anything, 'couldn't' do anything. NASA and a female Army Prison General who also 'couldn't' do anything.


4,365 posted on 06/02/2004 3:26:21 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
We now have two women in charge, who didn't do anything, 'couldn't' do anything. NASA and a female Army Prison General who also 'couldn't' do anything.

LOL! Ya might just be on to something there.

IMO, the NASA culture did change from can-do to a federal bureaucracy with all the trimmings.(that would include gender equality)

4,366 posted on 06/02/2004 6:46:48 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Lex et Liberatas......Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!)
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To: wirestripper; XBob; Resolute; computermechanic
A former co-worker stopped by my house in the mountains the other day, and I asked him how it was going down at KSC.

He said the political BS is worse now than it was when it drove me out of there 5 years ago.

Back then, NASA was turning over control of just about everything to USA. Now, the pendulum is swinging the other way, and NASA is taking everything back. They are hiring away a lot of engineers from USA.

As predicted, NASA is trying to shift the blame for their own malfeasance onto the contractors. "They need more oversight" blahblahblah...

My friend is in a fairly high position, and works for a female NASA person who "works hard, but doesn't know anything". How typical. He has to explain the simplest shuttle processing things to her.

Another friend who was one of the most talented managers out there - been there since 1980 - got moved aside for saying the wrong thing to NASA.

The scariest thing he told me was that the Nasa Test Director group - who take over for S0007 (the launch countdown), are all new people. The old "skilled hands" have all moved on. The launch countdowns should be real interesting from now on...<smirk>

My friend had some interesting stories about the recovery effort. He said that during their dragnet in East Texas, they found parts of three bodies that weren't astronauts (via DNA testing). Several old murder cases had to be re-opened.

He also said that the "black boxes" in the Avionics bays mostly survived, but that all the solder on the internal circuit boards had melted so that the chips and other components were piled in the bottom of the heavy aluminum cases.

The one exception was the OEX recorder, which was located under the floor of the mid-deck. They think that maybe the nearby water tanks kept it cool enough to survive the re-entry. What a miracle!

The smart money is on a May launch, although officially they are shooting for February. (There are no launch windows between Feb. and May, thanks to AlGore.)

4,367 posted on 06/13/2004 5:09:02 AM PDT by snopercod ("When you reach out to the French, you get slapped in the face." -- Charles Krauthammer)
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To: snopercod

Thanks for the update. Nothing you have said surprises me, and is no more than I expected.

Except for the part about the additional bodies found in Texas. Interesting, and I hadn't heard this. However, thinking about it, it isn't surprising.

The area where the major debris was found is often pretty, well not remote, but sort of temperate jungle. It's called the 'great piney woods', and is sort of like Brer' Rabbit's hard to traverse Briar Patch in some respect. It has been a hideout and place for run-aways etc since the days of Jean LaFitte, the pirate, the place where runaway slaves went to hide, the place where outnumbered civil war soldiers (from both sides) went to hide when they were running.

It still is thinly populated, and we were very lucky in that respect that it basically landed in this 'scrub', otherwise a lot of people would have been killed.


4,368 posted on 06/13/2004 7:21:03 AM PDT by XBob (Free-traitors promote goverment jobs and government welfare!)
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To: snopercod

367 - "The one exception was the OEX recorder, which was located under the floor of the mid-deck. They think that maybe the nearby water tanks kept it cool enough to survive the re-entry. What a miracle! "

Interesting observation, makes sense. And, should tell the engineers/designers something - make a design change and put the really important black boxes in the water/wastewater tanks.


4,369 posted on 06/13/2004 7:28:31 AM PDT by XBob (Free-traitors promote goverment jobs and government welfare!)
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To: snopercod

PS - Unfortunatley, It seems like Doc has permanently gone off the deep end. Too bad. I hope he gets better, but (like the whole space program) I have my doubts.


4,370 posted on 06/13/2004 7:31:55 AM PDT by XBob (Free-traitors promote goverment jobs and government welfare!)
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To: snopercod

It looks like NASA is well along on the scenario painted by many science-fiction episodes - where there is advanced technology everywhere but nobody knows how it all works anymore.


4,371 posted on 06/14/2004 4:07:35 AM PDT by computermechanic
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To: computermechanic

Oh, the "Foundation" series. Those were great.


4,372 posted on 06/14/2004 4:34:14 AM PDT by snopercod (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one." --Hamilton)
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To: justanotherday

I am still lurking when the "moderator" allows me to.

I was disgusted when the moderators here unfairly edited my comments without my approval, then censored some comments which were totally appropriate and within the context of the discussion, and then tried to act like nothing occurred.

As the POTUS says... I will always pick defense of AMERICANS first... and that INCLUDES clearly defining for DUAL CITIZENS that they are not permitted to influence US political life. DUAL citizenship has got to go.

PERIOD.


4,373 posted on 06/18/2004 9:30:35 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (defend America...get vaccinated.)
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To: XBob

Excuse me?

Sorry that you feel that Dual citizens belong influencing our national elections...

maybe when you come back to the REAL meaning of US Citizenship, then we'll have a real discussion... but I digress from the longest and most technical thread in this board's history.

I remind you that this thread that heavily impacted by my continuing commitment towards educating the populous on the dynamics in and around our national space program.

Lastly, GOD SPEED THE SPACESHIP ONE...


4,374 posted on 06/18/2004 9:33:49 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (defend America...get vaccinated.)
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To: snopercod

may be we should start a launch date pool?


4,375 posted on 06/18/2004 9:35:42 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (defend America...get vaccinated.)
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To: bonesmccoy

I'll take never.


4,376 posted on 06/18/2004 9:40:15 PM PDT by null and void ( 'IF', only the middle letters in 'life.')
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To: bonesmccoy
may be we should start a launch date pool?

That would be too easy. The few daylight 5-minute launch windows scattered around the calendar are well known within the probram.

Glad to see you back.

4,377 posted on 06/19/2004 3:25:42 AM PDT by snopercod (I'm so proud to be a part of this great mass deception. - Frank Zappa)
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To: snopercod

Thanks for the kind words...
I still don't trust this board for anything... the editing and the censorship imposed by the illinformed admin is little different than the stupidity printed in the LA Times each day.

Let the people debate!


4,378 posted on 06/20/2004 4:53:55 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (defend America...get vaccinated.)
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To: bonesmccoy
Let the people debate!

I'm with you on that. In fact I left FR in disgust for over a month after you were banned.

But I came back, censorship, stupid mod tricks and all.

They can censor me and pull my threads, but I'm not going to donate any more money until this crap stops.

4,379 posted on 06/20/2004 6:13:32 PM PDT by snopercod ("Never let a day go by without trying to have a little fun." - Chuck Yeager)
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To: bonesmccoy; XBob; brityank; snopercod; wirestripper; Budge; All

I've been reading about problems/predictions re: Main Landing Gear Door - Thermal Barrier failure and the foam strike.

Does anybody know of some www info showing details or some close-up pictures of what this structure looks like? From what I've seen so far, it looks to me like the tile structure gets a little weird but I can't tell much from what info I have found so far. Thanks..


4,380 posted on 06/29/2004 6:51:36 PM PDT by computermechanic
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