BREAKING: NBC News finds Jan 30 NASA Memo showing serious concern about tile damage!

NBC News | February 3, 2003 | Jay Barbree

[Timesink]

Developing. Watch MSNBC for latest. Internal memo shows some engineers believe there was up to a 7 1/2-inch gash from the foam breakoff at launch. Memo was serious enough to go out to all NASA centers two days before disaster.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Let me address this point:

Russia just this weekend launched a resupply ship to the ISS. Could it have resupplied the stranded shuttle instead?

Ok...If the Columbia cannot dock with the ISS, what makes you think that a spacecraft that CAN dock with the ISS would be able to dock with the Columbia???? Use your head, man...

[Rebelbase]

"BUZZZZT....wrong answer...when human life is at stake its your honor and duty to do ANYTHING to save it. Saving human life goes beyond "regulations and procedures".

Apollo 13, nothing short of a miracle.

[HairOfTheDog]

There's a few more coming on thread... You might as well save that response. You will need it again!

[Mo1]

It probably means payload will have to be sacrificed on furute missions so that there is enough gear for a spacewalk for such a repair mission

That would be my guess

From what I understand these tiles were not all the same size, plus you would need the proper equipment to get out there

From what I read it was not possible for the columbia to even dock at the station.

[TLBSHOW]

If this happened in the civilian sector, there would probably be negligent homicide charges filed at some point in the investigation. I doubt that will happen with NASA.

BUMP

[js1138]

Each tile is custom-formed to a specific shape. How do you have a "tile repair kit" under such circumstances?

Interesting question. In 1981 it would have been impossible. However, with computer driven cutters, it would be possible to make tiles to order. I'm sure the equipment would take up a lot of space, using it would take training, and once cut, how do you install them when the adhesive isn't designed to work except at precise temperatures?

[KeepUSfree]

And Columbus shouldn't have sailed off to the new world without a contigency plan for falling off the edge of the earth - not to mention a complete set of navigational charts, a map of the world and a GPS for good measure.

Hell, by your standards, we shouldn't even have come down out of the trees in the first place. This ground has WAAAY to many predators - and it's just not safe!!!

[Mmmike]

I have another question about the tiles: Is it impractical to use two layers of tiles so that a damaged outer layer can be cast off and be replaced by the inner layer?

[bvw]

That's just more denial. When the alarm goes off, do you say, "What's the worry, we were just fine before it went off, and what's changed? Only that the alarm went off. Let's just ignore it."

[Poohbah]

Interesting question. In 1981 it would have been impossible. However, with computer driven cutters, it would be possible to make tiles to order.

OK, so you have as permanent cargo a tile fabrication facility and spare tiles.

Which, all told, would probably take up most of the payload volume...

I'm sure the equipment would take up a lot of space, using it would take training, and once cut, how do you install them when the adhesive isn't designed to work except at precise temperatures?

Oh, you just use KRAZY GLUE! </sarcasm>

[Chad Fairbanks]

Think of how much weight that would add, in theory...

[Tallguy]

It is hard for me to believe that shuttles don't carry some sort of tile repair kits where the astronauts can go outside and do repairs, but it appears they don't.

Without the manipulator arm (Columbia wasn't equipped with one for this mission) there is no way a weightless astronaut could have stabilized himself to do any useful work. Also, most of the tiles are tailored to fit into a specific location. Therefore, you'd have to (1) take a spacewalk on the non-existant manipulator arm to (2) assess the damage. (3) Then you'd have to return to the non-existant tile shaper inside the shuttle to (4) manufacture the tile(s) for (5) a second EVA to affix the tiles using (6) a bonding process that probably wouldn't work in a vaccuum or at low temperatures.

IMHO, their only hope was the space station, which this particular shuttle couldn't reach and was not equipped to dock with.

Given that the Space Station provides the rationale for the Shuttle, and visa versa, this accident is a management oversight of the first magnitude. The responsibility for this accident goes all the way to the top of NASA.

[SarahW]

Perhaps I should edit that to "one tile in a crucial spot damaged prior to re-entry", but the over arching point is the same - it's shocking to here Nasa say if they had seen damage, there is nothing that could be done.

Tile damage in critical areas is liekely to be catastrophic, the tiles are fragile. There is no failsafe for tile damage, no "plan "b".

[john316]

Back in the days when DOD had some flights, there was a minimal setup called LON (Launch On Need) but having been out the shuttle areana for about 10 years I don't know if they still have that capability. Given that it would take a many hours to roll-out an orbiter, and even more time to get a crew prepared, and then time involved in fueling, then you gotta count hours to load and test gpc's, etc.

I just don't think that a "rescue" mission would have worked, and that is given that there was even a known problem. As I stated earlier I haven't been involved in shuttle software for some time, but I believe that my arguments have a good foundation.

[Mo1]

On another thread someone pointed out that ABC radio wondered why they didn't parachute out -- 200,000+ parachuting out! Give me a break!

parachute out ???.. ABC said that??

OMG .. that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard

[Dane]

If this happened in the civilian sector, there would probably be negligent homicide charges filed at some point in the investigation. I doubt that will happen with NASA.

Huh, it seems that the Astronauts and their families, had complete faith in their co-workers and their superiors at NASA. It is very easy to point out a memo or something but their is no rebuttal to this memo only except a little blurb from someone.

It is very disingenuous to stroll out this memo and imply this former NASA administrator is correct. He did not "predict" the insulation falling off during liftoff and damaging the tiles, but what the hey it is convienent for TLB to trot this and say "see, see, NASA is evil and I am the all knowing one".

Everyone from the Astronauts to the enngineers to the Astronauts families knew the dangers of space travel, but it seems that TLB is only concerned with trotting out some unsourced memo, to taint NASA as evil, and smugly and falsely say, "I told you so". And that is beneath contempt, IMO.

[js1138]

If this happened in the civilian sector, there would probably be negligent homicide charges filed at some point in the investigation. I doubt that will happen with NASA.

And that is precisely why human space flight will not be privatized. Some risks can only be assumed with sovereign immunity.

[Poohbah]

IMHO, their only hope was the space station, which this particular shuttle couldn't reach and was not equipped to dock with.

Not to mention that the Space Station is on a different orbital plane than the Columbia was...it's like trying to arrange a rendevous between a car on I-70 and a car on I-40.

[Dave S]

ABC radio wondered why they didn't parachute out -- 200,000+ parachuting out! Give me a break!

Yes and at mach 18. ROTWFL. At two or three times the speed of sound, pilots that eject get broken bones and beat up pretty badly by the ejection. Just think what would happen to them if they ejected at 18 times the speed of sound. They would be torn apart.

[Mo1]

I'm beginning to think that some here consider ANY criticism on apart of NASA, much less any gov agency; is a direct slap in face to GWB

This has nothing to do with Bush and to even say that is insulting

This is about a terrible accident of the shuttle where lives were lost ..