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Bang Bang, Your Suit's Dead - Two courtrooms wins for the Second Amendment
Wall Street Journal ^ | January 29, 2003 | Collin Levey

Posted on 01/29/2003 5:28:21 AM PST by Stand Watch Listen

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:05:09 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

This week, two unlikely judges shared a small moment of justice on behalf of the Second Amendment.

In Florida, Judge Jorge Labarga, of butterfly ballot fame, threw out a $1.2 million award against the distributor of a handgun used by a kid to shoot his teacher. In the Ninth Circuit, Carter appointee Stephen Reinhardt returned to an earlier antigun opinion and deleted references to the work of Michael Bellesiles, the historian whose Bancroft Prize was revoked because of serious questions about the honesty of his scholarship.


(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 01/29/2003 5:28:21 AM PST by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
BANG ! :)
2 posted on 01/29/2003 5:54:38 AM PST by skinkinthegrass (Just be because your paranoid,doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :)
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To: *bang_list
indexing
3 posted on 01/29/2003 6:01:41 AM PST by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
"As Americans have begun to think differently about their personal safety, courts have begun looking at the gun question in a more sober light."....sober light.... sober light....how about survival mode? Some folks belonging to the "religion of peace" have targeted us infidels for extinction, for crying out loud....and by all accounts they are right here among us. Some judges are bound to eventually realize that this is not the time to disarm the American people, for public actions sometimes have unintended personal consequences.
4 posted on 01/29/2003 6:04:35 AM PST by B.O. Plenty
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: dbwz; technochick99; basil; Hotline; pro2A Mom
heads up bump! woo hoo!
6 posted on 01/29/2003 6:14:05 AM PST by PistolPaknMama (kaboom!)
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To: ScottBuck
Yep, and do you think THEY are without protection? HA!
7 posted on 01/29/2003 6:26:04 AM PST by Puppage
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To: Stand Watch Listen
"that the handgun maker was partially liable for the death of her husband"

Wrong. Valor Corpoation was the distributor. Raven Arms was the manufacturer who went out of business (due to a fire) nine years before the shooting.

The gun went from Raven Arms to the distributor, where it was sold (to someone). That person then sold it to Hypoluxo Pawn Shop. The uncle of the shooter, Elmore McCray, purchased the gun from the pawn shop and placed it in an unlocked box in the unlocked drawer of a dresser in his bedroom. I don't know if the gun was stored loaded.

The shooter, 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill, stole the gun from his uncle and shot his teacher, point blank, in the head, killing him instantly and leaving behind a wife and childern.

The wife sued everybody, uncle, pawn shop, distributor, and the school district, and was awarded $24 million. The distributor was deemed 5% liable (ergo, $1.2 million).

8 posted on 01/29/2003 6:39:15 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Puppage
bookmark bump
9 posted on 01/29/2003 6:43:13 AM PST by lepton
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To: ScottBuck
There are folks right here on FR who see nothing wrong with the government removing our RKBA. Roscoe and Boot Hill come to mind. One doesn't see anything wrong with the States outlawing RKBA, although he is mum on whether or not the Feds can. The other thinks that any government official at all can just point a gun at you and tell you give up your property without due process, be it a firearm or anything else.

These attitudes need to change as much as those of the people who sit on the bench in our Courts and in our Legislatures. Notice the Nineth Circus Judge didn't change the ruling, only edited his opinion. Hardly a win. That case should be brought before the USSC as it conflicts directly with the 5th Circuits Emerson ruling. I really don't think RKBA supporters would quite get the ruling they would hope for out of them however. The "powers that be" would be rocked to the core should the USSC rule that RKBA is an unalienable individual Right for every US citizen.

Ergo... they will add in the rejoineder that "reasonable" restrictions apply. It would be like saying that it is ok to be a little bit dead, or a little bit pregnant.

It's either one or the other. There is no room for black and white on this issue. No moral equivication. We either have the Right, or we don't. The question is too important on too many levels.

10 posted on 01/29/2003 6:45:52 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Stand Watch Listen
*
11 posted on 01/29/2003 7:08:22 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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To: robertpaulsen
The wife sued everybody, uncle, pawn shop, distributor, and the school district, and was awarded $24 million.

Actually, I do not belive the widow sued the uncle or the school. In the previous article posted about this, it said:

Since neither McCray nor the school board were defendants in the civil trial, they did not have to pay damages. Both have previous settlements with Pam Grunow.

The jury came back and said Valor was only 5% responsible and McCray and the school shared the other 95% of the responsibility. Its confusing civil law procedures. You can file suit against one person, but the jury can find someone other than the person named in the suit responsible for the damage. However, if a jury fins such, only a party to the suit must pay(I do not know if the widow could now file suit against McCray and the school. Probabaly not since they settled already.) The widow wasn't going to be getting the other $22.8 million regardless.

12 posted on 01/29/2003 7:14:54 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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To: FreeTally
I wonder if Valor can file a counter-suit to recoup their loses in having to defend themselves against bogus allegations?

Being able to do so, or even having it as an automatic part of the process, seems like it would really cut down on the nuber of frivolous lawsuits.

13 posted on 01/29/2003 7:17:27 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse
I think you unfairly attributed an opinion to Boot Hill. I re-read the link and BH was defending the militia leader. I think you meant Poohbah or CJ.
14 posted on 01/29/2003 7:20:32 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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To: Dead Corpse
I wonder if Valor can file a counter-suit to recoup their loses in having to defend themselves against bogus allegations?

I don't think so. That would mean any defendant in a civil trial who "wins" would do so as well.

Being able to do so, or even having it as an automatic part of the process, seems like it would really cut down on the nuber of frivolous lawsuits.

I would agree to an extent. I wouldn't want to see a losing plantif automatically have to pay court costs. There are already procedures in place for recouping losses by defending one's self in frivolous suits.

The reality is that the suit should have been thrown out. This was an intentional act of murder. There was no negligence on the part of Valor. As far as repsonsibility or liability go for McCray and the school, I don't know.

15 posted on 01/29/2003 7:25:36 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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To: FreeTally
Poo and CJ are in a class by themselves as far as bootlickers as concerned. BH rolling over and trying to pass off my opinion as a felony shows he has a distinct lack of understanding the full issue.

Or can you explain to me how resisting an armed felony assault, even when perpetrated by a federal employee, is suddenly against the TOS here at FR?

16 posted on 01/29/2003 7:26:38 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: FreeTally
So each individual should bear his own court costs? Wouldn't that mean that you could "penalize" someone by continually filing charges against them with the express purpose of bankrupting them?

Loser pays up as part of either punishment or in restitution for a false accusation. Sounds equitable and fair to me. Am I wrong?

17 posted on 01/29/2003 7:29:04 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse
BH rolling over and trying to pass off my opinion as a felony shows he has a distinct lack of understanding the full issue.

I must not have caught that part. I'll read further.

Or can you explain to me how resisting an armed felony assault, even when perpetrated by a federal employee, is suddenly against the TOS here at FR?

No, I would say we have a duty to resist such abuses of power and crimes, no matter if they are perpetrated by a federal employee.

18 posted on 01/29/2003 7:43:03 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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To: Stand Watch Listen
I was channel surfing last nite after the SOU speech and I think it was on CBS that they had Michael Bellesiles on as one of their analysts. I didn't watch him and I might be mistaken but how in Gods name can a "major" network put a discredited ass like this on with a straight face?
19 posted on 01/29/2003 7:45:03 AM PST by MCRD
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To: Dead Corpse
So each individual should bear his own court costs? Wouldn't that mean that you could "penalize" someone by continually filing charges against them with the express purpose of bankrupting them?

I don't think that is possible. What you describe are frivolous lawsuits which are typically thrown out at the first hearing. There is a procedure though for having a judgement against a person who files such lawsuits. I can not remember the exact name for it. I think its "Chapter 'something' proceedings" or "sanctions". This can be brought against the attorney as well. Maybe another freeper more astute in the law knows the answer.

Loser pays up as part of either punishment or in restitution for a false accusation. Sounds equitable and fair to me. Am I wrong?

False accusations are one thing. Simply "losing" is another. However, it is hard to distinguish between the two sometimes. In the case in question, the suit shouldn't have even been allowed. The trial judge should have read the complaint and understood that a firearm manufacturer can not be sued for their product opperating in the maner it was created to.

I don't like alot of aspects of civil law, such as actions being deemed both criminal and civil(wrongfull death suits in acts of murder for one). But, I am not ready to accept a "loser pays all" system. In some cases it is warranted. In some it is not.

20 posted on 01/29/2003 7:52:14 AM PST by FreeTally (How did a fool and his money get together in the first place?)
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