Officers brace to be fired in Kmart raid case

Houston Chronicle ^ | Jan. 25, 2003 | RACHEL GRAVES

[Houmatt]

Two police officers involved in the Kmart raid in which nearly 300 people were arrested are likely to be fired Tuesday, their lawyer and a union representative say.

The lawyer for Capt. Mark A. Aguirre, who ordered the raid, and for Sgt. Ken Wenzel said the Houston Police Department should wait to decide whether to fire them until after the two go to trial this summer on charges of official oppression.

Instead both are scheduled for hearings, at which it will be determined whether they should be fired Tuesday.

"Most people who have loudermill hearings get fired," lawyer Terry W. Yates said.

"They should allow us to have our day in court," he said. "They're rushing to judgment."

HPD spokesman Robert Hurst said the department is following proper procedures.

"Mr. Yates is fully aware of what the Houston Police Department disciplinary process is," he said.

Aguirre and Wenzel were indicted last month on five counts each of official oppression for the Aug. 18 sweep of a Kmart parking lot. The raid was intended to crack down on drag racing, but when no one was found drag racing, officers arrested hundreds on charges of trespassing and curfew violations.

Thirteen police officers were suspended with pay and all the trespassing and curfew violations dropped. No charges were filed against the other 11 officers implicated in the incident.

More officers are scheduled for hearings, Hurst said, but he said he did not know how many, who or when the hearings would be held. Hurst declined to comment further because the issue is a disciplinary matter.

Hans Marticiuc, president of the Houston Police Officers Union, said he expects Aguirre and Wenzel and possibly two more officers to be fired.

Acting Police Chief Timothy Oettmeier will report to City Council on Wednesday the results of an internal investigation of the Kmart incident.

[Houmatt]

It is called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

The fact you missed it is rather telling.

[RWG]

No. Poor performance and poor judgement may not be illegal but they certainly are grounds for termination. Right?

[Ciexyz]

Washington artwork defaced at Met

Now that's something I can get radical about.

[Dog Gone]

I'm not being disingenuous. You are being purposefully obtuse.

Police may arrest people for illegal behavior. They may not arrest people on false charges, especially when they plan the false charges in advance.

If the people at the parking lot were engaged in illegal behavior at the time, they should have been arrested on those charges. Instead, they were arrested on a ridiculous charge, not backed up by the Texas Penal Code, and not supported by anyone who knows anything about the law.

This has been painstakingly shown to you numerous times, but you are unwilling to acknowldege this basic truth.

Your heroes are going to get fired on Tuesday, and then they're going to stand trial. You are living in denial, dude.

[NewsFlash]

"What these officers did was criminal, and outrageous, and they are not fit to be police officers."

I've read the origonal article several times, and I just don't get what the flap is all about?? We have a similar problem in our hometown. Kids from here, as well as from great distances away, come to the main "Drag" in town to congregate and hang out. It's been a problem for a long time. They loiter in all the parking lots meant for business and leave a wave of litter in their wake. People avoid the area after sundown because it's like entering an out of control party zone. Souped up cars roaring back and forth, kids in large groups sitting on hood of cars all up and down the street screaming all sorts of colorful things at people passing by. Cruisers playing the latest Rap crap, with the base cranked to the max, Thump Thumping and vibrating everything within the tri city limits.

Since the article stated nearly 300 people were arrested for curfew violations, I believe we're talking about juveniles here. A curfew law clearly means leave the streets or be at home by a prescribed hour. Are these kids somehow exempt from the law? BTW 300 kids in one Kmart parking lot is a LOT of kids.

Also, the article mentions tresspassing arrests. I don't believe the police can arrest on a tresspass without the property owners say-so. So I guess Kmart didn't want them there either....

Unless something important was left out of this story....I still don't see what was criminal or outrageous making these cops unfit to be police officers.

[Dog Gone]

I don't believe the police can arrest on a tresspass without the property owners say-so.

That's about the only correct thing you said.

Kmart didn't request the arrests. Neither did Sonic, the other establishment there.

A minority were arrested on curfew charges; the vast majority on criminal trespass charges. They were adults.

And legitimate customers of these establishments were arrested. In fact, just about everyone was arrested.

The Sonic drive-in made a ton of money from the crowd that hung out there on Saturday nights. They were upset that the police arrested their customers.

And why wouldn't they be?

The truth is that the Houston police were trying to stop street drag racing, and this was a site where they were known to congregate before engaging in that dangerous and illegal activity. They planned this bust to arrest the drag racers. I'm not sure how legal that idea is, since arresting you before you commit a crime isn't justified. Be that as it may, there were none of the people that they were looking for. The supervisor got angry when he discovered that and ordered everyone in the vicinity arrested.

What is it about that seems reasonable to you?

Add to that that the police brought their own NO TRESPASSING signs to post when they swooped down and blocked all the exits. The police aren't entitled to do that on private property. Especially when that private property happens to be a business that is open for customers.

The dragnet that the police cast here was not justified either in the law, or in common sense. Completely innocent people, not part of the regular crowd of "undesirables" were arrested and spent the night in jail, simply for being at the wrong place when the Houston cops decided to arrest just about everyone in the vicinity.

[chaosagent]

Because they didn't arrest just juveniles.

They arrested everyone they found in the area. Mothers, fathers, children, shoppers coming out of KMart and grandparents and grandchildren sitting in their car eating at the Sonic Drive-In.

They even tried to arrest a retired guy out walking his dog, but discovered they didn't have anyway to handle the dog if they took the guy to jail. Guess he was lucky they didn't shoot his dog.

[NewsFlash]

You sound more than a little peeved over this issue, and it was not my intent to spike your blood pressure. I simply read this story, and since I can identify with problems loitering, partying people can cause, I was curious to find out what was really going on. The article left out a lot of information, and I asked what was it that was stiring people up.

After your response I went to the news source and researched this. Seems there is a lot to be said from BOTH sides of this issue. Now the ACLU is getting involved, which IMHO, just makes me more sceptical. I also found out:

1. The "sting" was in response to numerous complaints by businesses and residents about drag racing, loitering, trash, loud noise and other problems caused by the hundreds of youths who congregate in the area on weekend nights. (Just like I thought)

2. Plain-clothes officers staking out the lot before the raid handed out cards to shoppers to help ensure they didn't get caught up in the fray.

3. This was not a peaceful gathering, and was a crowd upwards of 500 people strong.

4. Many arrested were as young as 13 and 14 years old. One arrested was a 10 year old. (The 10 year old was supposedly having dinner with her Father and they were "separated" in the fray. It was past 12:30 am and well past a 10 year olds dinnertime so it makes me wonder if Dad was really there?)

5. The police department seems to have critical internal problems.

Does what the police did rise to the level of a "crime" or make them "un-fit"? I'm still not sure. The one thing I am sure of is that this whole thing started with a group of un-ruly kids causing a problem.

Just stating my humble, and now a little better informed opinion.

[Gigantor]

"4. One arrested was a 10 year old. (The 10 year old was supposedly having dinner with her Father and they were "separated" in the fray. It was past 12:30 am and well past a 10 year olds dinnertime so it makes me wonder if Dad was really there?)"

And you call yourself informed?

It's ok to arrest a ten year old because she's having a late night burger with her dad after seeing a movie, maybe?

How about the people arrested while in their car picking up food in the drive thru?

[HiTech RedNeck]

You got your jackboot stuck in your mouth.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Circular argument. The businesses were open to the general public, therefore the legal presumption is that the general public is welcome on their property unless they themselves express otherwise; and they did not thus express themselves. Your city cops screwed this up big time and you should be as mad at them as anybody, because this did not need to happen. All the neighborhood nuisance activities you list (excessive noise, littering, vandalism, etc.) could be legitimately busted. But no. Your cops busted virtually the whole lotful of people for violating falsified "no trespassing" notices. Yeehaw. These cowboys aren't exactly the straightest shooting guns on the belt.

[HiTech RedNeck]

If that lot is a constant problem, then they should run a chain after K-mart's closing time every Fri and Sat eves.

This was a 24 hour K Mart. I have no idea what it is now, given all the K Mart closings.

[Houmatt]

Also, the article mentions tresspassing arrests. I don't believe the police can arrest on a tresspass without the property owners say-so. So I guess Kmart didn't want them there either....

For the record, a spokesman for the K-Mart corporate headquarters (not the store in question) stated they did not request the raid. However, a store employee admitted there were complaints about the behavior in their parking lot. As far as I am concerned, I think the K-Mart corporation is either being disingenuous about their part in the raid, or they really do carry the attitude that has contributed directly to their bankruptcy.

Unless something important was left out of this story....I still don't see what was criminal or outrageous making these cops unfit to be police officers.

You got the full gist of it. The raid was the result of months of complaints coming mainly from people living in the apartment complex that surrounds the KMart store in question. You had an unusually large group of people in the parking lot engaging in criminal behavior (something that was not repeated at the Wal-Mart across the street, BTW). The police came in and did their job, which the media distorted by talking to people who claimed they were innocent of any wrongdoing (just like every murderer on death row). What you see happening is the result of bad blood between the police chief and the officer who orchestrated the raid. Welcome to the world of politics.

Meanwhile, of the over 300 stores KMart is planning on closing this year, all of the Houston stores, including the KMart in question, will be among them. As of right now, things have not changed one iota since the raid (considering the city dropped all charges to all those arrested at the request of the acting police chief), but once that store closes, things are going to get ten times worse.

[Houmatt]

Go back and re-read msg #20.

[Houmatt]

The Sonic drive-in made a ton of money from the crowd that hung out there on Saturday nights. They were upset that the police arrested their customers.

Source?

The truth is that the Houston police were trying to stop street drag racing, and this was a site where they were known to congregate before engaging in that dangerous and illegal activity. They planned this bust to arrest the drag racers. I'm not sure how legal that idea is, since arresting you before you commit a crime isn't justified. Be that as it may, there were none of the people that they were looking for. The supervisor got angry when he discovered that and ordered everyone in the vicinity arrested.

Pure speculation. Could you by chance stick with the facts? Thank you.

[Houmatt]

For the record, it is no longer a 24-hour store. This is due to lack of business during the hours of 11 pm to 7 am.

[Houmatt]

ROTFLMAO!

I would ask you for a source, but I know you would never give me one.

Fiction is for novels and the Weekly World News.

[Houmatt]

Oh, I see. If you agree with the actions of the police, you are a Nazi. That is what you are saying, isn't it?

[Houmatt]

Circular argument my a$$. The businesses are welcome to the general public, but that does not mean the public is entitled to come there for the specific purpose of enaging in criminal behavior.

And who says they have to announce to the store management they are not there as customers in order for them not to be customers? Could that argument be any more ridiculous??

[Dog Gone]

I have my facts right.

(Kmart Raid) Sonic officials say raid at restaurant unwanted.

Sonic officials said Thursday that they never complained to police about the regular weekend crowd, had no warning of the raid and ordered employees to protect customers as the operation began.

Dismayed Sonic employees refused to allow police to tow 12 cars that the arrested customers were forced to leave in the lot.

"We wanted the opportunity for our customers to come get their cars without paying towing charges," said Celina Abernathy, a Sonic spokeswoman. Such charges can exceed $100. "Obviously we don't want our customers arrested. That is just common sense."

Sonic has never warned trespassers, filed complaints or signed paperwork to allow police to make arrests under the city trespassing ordinance, Abernathy said.

You continue to try to justify the indefensible. At least you're consistent.