Grijalva invites Ashcroft to see vigilante 'justice'

Arizona Daily Star ^ | 14 Jan 2003 | Unkown

[JackelopeBreeder]

Grijalva invites Ashcroft to see vigilante 'justice'

ARIZONA DAILY STAR; Tuesday, January 14, 2003

U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva stepped up his campaign to crack down on vigilantes Monday by inviting Attorney General John Ashcroft to come to Southern Arizona to see the threat they pose to border security.

The Tucson Democrat told Ashcroft in a letter that the federal government's silence on the issue is "seen as giving official sanction to this racist movement, both by the perpetrators and victims of vigilante 'justice.' "

Ashcroft's voice, Grijalva added, "is needed now to make clear that private armed groups claiming law enforcement powers have no role in patrolling our border with Mexico."

Last week, shortly after he was sworn in, Grijalva called for a federal inquiry into the vigilante groups that have formed in response to the thousands of illegal immigrants who make their way across Arizona's border every year.

[dirtboy]

All I said was that the preponderance of the evidence I have seen so far indicates they're telling the truth in this matter regarding Mr. Spencer.

ONE item that you are unwilling to explain as to why you believe is racist. Boy, trial lawyers must actively seek you out for jury duty...

[Joe Hadenuf]

U got mail.......

[hchutch]

How about the lack of evidence to back up the assertion he made in that quote?

How about the second sentence where he said "Chicanos and Mexicanos lie as a means of survival" - which is a clear blanket statement that appears (at least to me) to apply to Hispanics, particularly those of Mexican descent.

Do you believe ALL Mexicans are liars? Mr. Spencer seems to think so.

[hchutch]

CAll me as I am - a pro-immigration conservative Republican. One who will work to re-elect President bush in 2004, and who will find a solid conservaitve who will keep things going in 2008 - at present, I am hoping Jeb will run in `08, but I also like Condi Rice, Bill Frist, and wouldn't object to seeing either Steve Forbes, Rick Santorum, or J.C. Watts also run as well.

[Joe Hadenuf]

All I said was that the preponderance of the evidence I have seen so far indicates they're telling the truth in this matter regarding Mr. Spencer.

Horse Bunk. I would rather listen to Sadam babble in his native tongue and watch him rain down buckshot over the heads of his people than listen to anything the extreme leftist at SPLC has to say. Didn't anyone ever tell you those guys are a bunch of commie weirdos and freaks? LOL!

[Happy2BMe]

"You can continue to philosophize here on the forum, people like the JackelopeBreeder and myself are going to be out here on the frontlines protecting Americans from an invasion of lawless hooligans and worse."

HiJinx....

I for one am thankful to you for your efforts and love for your country.

Our borders are in much more secure when we have concerned citizens willing to put their money, time, effort, and personal safety where their mouth is . . unlike our unwilling and uncaring government.

It's in much better care in your hands (than the monkeys over at the INS).

Sleep Good Tonite Your Borders Are Belong To Us A Public Service Announcement of The INS

[Joe Hadenuf]

CAll me as I am - a pro-immigration conservative Republican

Wow, shocking...Where do you live hutch?

[dirtboy]

How about the lack of evidence to back up the assertion he made in that quote? How about the second sentence where he said "Chicanos and Mexicanos lie as a means of survival" - which is a clear blanket statement that appears (at least to me) to apply to Hispanics, particularly those of Mexican descent.

I think he could have worded it better, but his statement was also sympathetic to the rampant corruption Mexicans face in their own country - Spencer clearly said that this trait was a matter of survival as opposed to something they do cheerfully - just as gun owners in this country would become liars if there was ever a national registration or confiscation drive, and how many people in this country lie on their tax forms because of the current absurd tax laws. In the end, where would you rather live - under our system of law, or Mexico's? And I think what Spencer was trying to say was that the folks who think that Mexicans can immigrate here and retain their old culture and not change into Americans is dead wrong - and I agree with that, and so does the melting pot history of this country - until recent years.

Do you believe ALL Mexicans are liars? Mr. Spencer seems to think so.

No, but Mexican culture fosters deceipt as a survival mechanism, as he points out.

[dirtboy]

CAll me as I am - a pro-immigration conservative Republican.

What makes you think that, because I am against illegal immigration, that I am therefore opposed to immigration? Hint: I'm not, and my first wife was a naturalized citizen. I am, however, against illegal immigration, and I am against levels of immigration that strain the social structure of society, where small towns are unable to provide the services necessary to help new immigrants - and I am also against current liberal attitudes in this country that oppose assimilation and instead seek to keep immigrants locked into their original cultures, the better to make them long-term dependents upon the state (and Democratic social programs). So we need to figure out a level of immigration that this country can handle. Right now, the current system only favors Democrats and businesses who wish to hold labor costs down by hiring illegals. The rest of us, working stiff American citizens, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, are all collectively getting the shaft.

[hchutch]

And you still don't post proof of the allegations.

Furthermore, you and dirtboy haven't even shown an instant where they have been caught lying.

On the other hand, I have said from Post 89 that I did not like some of the tactics they have used. I have even stated a specific instance where I disagreed with them back in Post 316. I have stated up front in Post 82 that I did nbot like FALSE charges of racism.

Yet, it seems these days, I see a LOT of vitriol and attacks delivered at those who do NOT toe the Tancredo-Malkin line on immigration 100%. Some of these are not even grounded in reality - as an example, dirtboy had to RETRACT his "crossover Democrat" shot at me.

[dirtboy]

Here's an interesting search - goto the SPLC website and do a search on "New Black Panthers". You get one hit - an article that details one incident directly involving that group. But do you see any mention of their participation in the Reparations Rally? No, even though some truly vile racism was spewed there by their leader.

Now, look at right-wing political movements. The SPLC is always happy to mention that they attract a few seedy types, and therefore calls into question the politics of the group, even if the groups simply exist at the fringe of the movement and have no say in the platform and policies of the group. But they refused to make the same insinuations about a New Black Panther speaker at the reparations rally. Clear double standard.

[A Navy Vet]

Having not read all the posts to this thread, sorry if these questions have already been asked:
1. Just exactly how many thousands/millions of immigrants should the US take in during a given year? 100,000? 3,000,000? 12,000,000? 26,000,000? 47,000,000? Unlimited?
2. What should be the country allocation criteria, if any?
3. What should be done about the economic difficulties uncontrolled immigration is having on border towns and elsewhere?
4. What about US security regarding terrorist illegal immigrants?
5. Is it racist to address these questions? Why?
Thanks in advance.

[Joe Hadenuf]

CAll me as I am - a pro-immigration conservative Republican. One who will work to re-elect President bush in 2004, and who will find a solid conservaitve who will keep things going in 2008 - at present, I am hoping Jeb will run in `08, but I also like Condi Rice, Bill Frist, and wouldn't object to seeing either Steve Forbes, Rick Santorum, or J.C. Watts also run as well.

That's all fine and good hutch. But don't you think that our immigration laws ought to be reformed? Don't you agree that even our legal immigration policies, and Visa programs are out of control. Are they not creating a dangerous atmosphere here in America, in todays treacherous world?

[dirtboy]

Yet, it seems these days, I see a LOT of vitriol and attacks delivered at those who do NOT toe the Tancredo-Malkin line on immigration 100%. Some of these are not even grounded in reality - as an example, dirtboy had to RETRACT his "crossover Democrat" shot at me.

Quit your whining. You started this exchange with a call to ban American Patrol - you have NO grounds to complain about any esuing vitriol when you send a thread south like that. And you put yourself in the position of defending a known liberal group that tries to equate conservative positions with hate, and then wonder why you catch flack. And you have substantiated exactly ONE claim by SPLC, and then demand that we prove negatives - when you won't even post their claims about American Patrol as a starting point. So who is inciting a flame war here? Maybe the attacks against you have less to do with your positions on immigration and more to do with your tactics and subsequent "dish it out, but can't take it" whines...

[dirtboy]

Now, now, BlackElk was doing his level best to keep this thread a flame war, and you have to up and ask relevant questions.

[Mudboy Slim]

Hutch is kewl...MUD

[dirtboy]

He'd be a lot kewler if he quit trying to fling SPLC slime against American Patrol because he disagrees with their politics...

[Joe Hadenuf]

I got your answer to #1.

Check this response out...

1. Just exactly how many thousands/millions of immigrants should the US take in during a given year? 100,000? 3,000,000? 12,000,000? 26,000,000? 47,000,000? Unlimited?

So how many more millions do you think will be enough? 10 million more? 40 million more? 85 million more. How many more million are enough?

Is it also OK for the Chinese and Russians or anyone else to enter illegally by waves of millions by any means necessary?

182 posted on 01/14/2003 2:16 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

As many more millions as are necessary to dump Roe vs. Wade.

188 posted on 01/14/2003 2:33 PM PST by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

[Mudboy Slim]

LOL...hutch and I don't see eye-to-eye on immigration, either, but he's good people, IMHO...MUD

[txdoda]

Good luck on getting a straight answer from 'blackelk'
today......no one got one from him yesterday.

txdoda..(navy "brat"...:o)..)