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On a trip? Feds want the details
New York Daily News ^ | 1/04/03

Posted on 01/04/2003 1:41:36 AM PST by kattracks

WASHINGTON - The government wants detailed information about every person who enters or leaves the country by plane or boat, and for the first time would require U.S. citizens to fill out forms detailing their comings and goings.

Under rules proposed yesterday, the information would be sent electronically to the government for matching against security databases.

The public will have a month to comment on the plan before the final regulations take effect later this year. The American Civil Liberties Union, which has criticized many of the Bush administration's anti-terrorism information-gathering efforts, said these rules should not impinge on people's privacy.

"We don't see a huge downside," said ACLU spokeswoman Emily Whitfield.

Congress mandated the changes in legislation signed into law by President Bush in May.

The proposal requires passengers arriving or departing, as well as crew members, to provide name, date of birth, citizenship, sex, passport number and country of issuance, country of residence, U.S. visa number and other details of its issuance, address while in the United States and, where it applies, alien registration number.

Airlines, cargo flights, cruise ships and other vessels carrying crew or passengers will be affected. The information will be sent electronically to the government before a traveler arrives in the United States or departs, giving officials a complete passenger and crew manifest.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: govwatch; nwo; privacylist
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To: angkor
No, the people who were arrested were arrested here, in this country, after they had been caught doing something else, and only then was it discovered that they had been to Afghanistan.

I simply disagree with you on the seriousness of this effort. It is annoying, but not the red flag, in my opinion, you perceive it to be.

The CIA is tracking terrorists overseas; who tracks them in the USA...that is NOT the CIA's job. The FBI is supposed to be doing this, but they are not up to speed. I personally think this effort won't help except as a deterrent, in which case those who wish to travel surreptitiously will be forced into roundabout routes, forged documents, etc. and perhaps may be easier to spot overseas rather than people like me, who simply say they are going to London to see landmarks, then go to London and see landmarks.

I am well aware of the slippery slope argument. I also am aware that rights are somewhat curtailed during time of war. I also am aware that we don't have a declaration of war as of yet, but for all practical purposes we do.

So, we will just simply have to agree to disagree on this issue. No point in wasting Jim's bandwidth, and I am sure you will have people who see things as you do. Be sure you make a public comment to the government.

41 posted on 01/04/2003 7:06:34 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple
most of us disclose personal information without benefit of an attorney

Indeed we do, when we perceive a benefit in return for that disclosure.

This "rule" is quite different from those types of transactions: the USG is asking you (actually demanding) that you self-report on your innocent daily movements.

I cannot fathom that you would submit to voluntarily self-reporting to the USG anytime you drove across any state line within the USA. It would be an obvious intrusion into your privacy. Yet you think its OK that the USG demand the same for your foreign movements. I'd like you to explain how these scenarios are any different with respect to your fundamental rights of privacy.

And for the third or fourth time, I will tell you that it is the job of the CIA and the FBI to handle foreign intelligence in foreign countries, including the tracking of terrorists foreign and domestic. Making all citizens suspects ("Which country were you in on July 22nd") will not help them in detecting even one single terrorist.

It is quite clear from reading Bob Baer's "See No Evil" that both agencies have and are failing disastrously in that mission, and that this "rule" is a proxy (better stated, a cover) for their abysmal and hideous failures (e.g., they have atrocious human intelligence capabilities, so they target the easiest of "suspects", American citizens).

What this rule implies about our foreign intelligence agencies is actually much more frightening than the privacy infringements, if that's possible.

42 posted on 01/04/2003 7:06:35 AM PST by angkor
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To: angkor
Where did you see me say that I would willingly report my domestic movements? I never said that...you have inferred it, and you are quite wrong.

And now, I am going to take down my Christmas tree. Have a nice morning!

43 posted on 01/04/2003 7:08:27 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: angkor
People who leave the the country for "nefarious purposes" are not going to self-report their movements.

Bingo. This is to ask why you are going to, say, Luxembourg, and are you taking any money with you? This will have no positive effect on security from terorists.

44 posted on 01/04/2003 7:08:46 AM PST by eno_
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To: kattracks
Yeah, right, and they will also be asking that of the thousands of illegals who come across our southern border every day?

This is another example of our goobermint harassing us while giving illegal foreigners a pass. Of course, many Amerikans will think that this is a great idea to provide security for them.


45 posted on 01/04/2003 7:20:24 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: kattracks; Quix
I am quite confused. Is it not a matter of law that a US citizen has the absolute RIGHT to return to US soil?

If so, imagine that you come back on a flight from overseas and are asked where you were by an INS officer. You completely refuse. What are they going to do, throw you in jail? Prevent you from walking onto US soil?

46 posted on 01/04/2003 7:43:16 AM PST by ikka
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To: Miss Marple
in which case those who wish to travel surreptitiously will be forced into roundabout routes, forged documents, etc. and perhaps may be easier to spot overseas

Well, that's really the crux of the issue, and you're completely wrong about it.

With all due deference, I don't detect that you've done enough foreign travel - certainly not in third world countries - to understand how easy it would be for terrorists or criminals to mask their travels. Avoid credit cards and airlines (e.g., overland travel) and you're off the grid.

Innocent, law-abiding Americans will have their travels meticulously entered into a database, while the purported targets will simply lie (and if all else fails, do exactly what Richard Reid did and simply "lose" their incriminating passports and visa stamps).

The bottom line is that this "rule" won't even touch the purported targets.

Since you agree that it will only work as a deterrent, and I've shown you that even that is not the case, what remaining rationale could possibly exist for infringing on the privacy rights of American citizens?

47 posted on 01/04/2003 7:44:01 AM PST by angkor
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To: Uncle Bill
U.S. citizens

Yep!
when its the muslims that need deporting but since they all voted for President Bush in 2000 they get a free pass!
48 posted on 01/04/2003 7:47:58 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Miss Marple
Where did you see me say that I would willingly report my domestic movements?

No, I didn't say that. I posited that you would not do so.

And I asked, on the other hand, if you would willingly report on your foreign movements, and if so, why?

What's the difference between foreign travel and domestic travel with respect to your privacy?

You obviously perceive a differece, but I think you're evading the question about what that difference is.

49 posted on 01/04/2003 7:50:13 AM PST by angkor
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To: kattracks
The proposal requires passengers arriving or departing, as well as crew members, to provide name, date of birth, citizenship, SEX, passport number and country of issuance, country of residence, U.S. visa number and other details of its issuance, address while in the United States and, where it applies, alien registration number.

Just for fun, I think next time, I'll make 'em guess.
50 posted on 01/04/2003 7:52:20 AM PST by Xenalyte
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To: Looking4Truth
I'm PWT (posting without thinking) somewhat since I can't stop refreshing the forum and finding yet another topic of interest when I should have been asleep hours ago.

Dude, the first step is to admit you have a problem. :)
51 posted on 01/04/2003 7:53:24 AM PST by Xenalyte
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To: Miss Marple
The people MAY have entered through an Indian reservation.

Do border reservations have special exemptions that allow them to make said border utterly porous?
52 posted on 01/04/2003 7:54:54 AM PST by Xenalyte
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To: ikka
What are they going to do, throw you in jail?

Well, they'll certainly do something to make you miss your taxi ride home.

I once noted to a Customs officer that I was tired of bag searches every time I returned from Asia. That produced a introduction to several armed Customs officers, who were polite but wanted to know why I didn't want a bag check. In the end they simply opened the bag, peeked inside, and waved me through.

Once I stopped returning home in blue jeans and sandals, the bag searches stopped.

Duh.

53 posted on 01/04/2003 8:01:36 AM PST by angkor
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To: kattracks
Hmm... Now where is the "close the borders" crowd?

Happier, I suppose.
54 posted on 01/04/2003 8:10:42 AM PST by Ramius
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To: kattracks
I must be naive - I thought they were already supposed to do this.
55 posted on 01/04/2003 8:10:54 AM PST by Amelia
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To: Xenalyte
"Dude, the first step is to admit you have a problem. :)"

Excellent reply.

Hi! My name is L4T and I'm a FReepaholic.

"Hi L4T!"

Yes, I have finally admitted that I am powerless in my continual quests to get more and more information from great sites such as FreeRepublic because I was tired of being spoon fed a bunch of crap by 'traditional' media outlets.

"Keep coming back!"

56 posted on 01/04/2003 8:27:05 AM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: ikka
At that time, the global government will be intent on locking up those not overtly and vigorously in support of it; wearing the implant etc.

Borders will be key points for apprehending "rebels" of all stripes and nuances no matter how honorable and patriotic.

In the short-term, they'll probably content themselves with trying to assess (between cigarettes and gossip) whether or not someone has been having tea with Bin Laden and company or not.

Hand over the scanner, please. What cities did you visit? Where's your list of natives you associated with? What activities did you participate in--in each location? How much money did you take from the U.S.? How much did you return with. What taxes did you pay there? How many Mid-Eastern looking people did you associate with? How closely? Did you give Bin Laden any money? Did you bomb any schools, hotels or restaurants where westerners frequent? Did you sleep with any of Bin Laden's wives or body guards? Guess not--you're still alive. Move along.

The world will get even crazier.


57 posted on 01/04/2003 8:42:24 AM PST by Quix
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To: kattracks
This doesn't seem to be much different than the customs declaration form you fill out on the way home. However, although the airline wants to see your passport on the way out, the outward bound requirement is new.
58 posted on 01/04/2003 9:05:35 AM PST by Lessismore
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To: Miss Marple
Go Bush go!
59 posted on 01/04/2003 11:20:59 AM PST by second_half_recovery
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To: mewzilla
Just out of curiosity, what's to keep the bad guys from lying?

Well, it's illegal. They flattened both towers of the World Trade Center, but they wouldn't dare fill out those forms incorrectly.

60 posted on 01/04/2003 11:25:59 AM PST by second_half_recovery
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