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The Catholic Example
The New York Sun ^ | 12/31/02

Posted on 12/31/2002 6:23:50 AM PST by nypokerface

If New York City’s public school system could educate a child for what it costs to educate a child in one of New York’s Catholic schools, the city would be spending about $6.5 billion less on its Department of Education each year. That’s setting aside special education, which is a topic for another editorial.*

In 1962, New York educated a student population of about one million with about 40,000 teachers. Today, the city educates about 100,000 more students, but the number of teachers has doubled to about 80,000. Has the quality of education improved by a factor of two? If the question doesn’t make you cringe, you haven’t seen the latest test scores for New York City’s schools. Only 29.8% of the city’s eighth-graders, to take but one of many examples of the public school system’s failings, were able to test to standard on the math test.

The cost to educate the students in New York’s Catholic schools averages $3,200 a pupil for Kindergarten through eighth grade and $5,800 a pupil for high schoolers, according to a spokeswoman for the Archdiocese of New York, Nora Murphy. Most of that comes from tuition, but contributions from graduates and other donors cover a 10% to 20% share. The public schools spend nearly double that, about $10,000 each in elementary and middle schools and more than $9,000 for each high-school student.

The two largest factors that account for the difference in costs are the government bureaucracy surrounding the schools and the enormous power of the city’s teachers union. These two factors, minimized in the Catholic school system, are the biggest obstacles to education reform in New York’s public schools.

The Archdiocese of New York is able to administer to about 110,000 students with a total central administrative staff of 28. At that level, the city’s school system would have no more than a few hundred administrative staff. But New York has almost 9,000 administrators, secretaries, clerks, accountants, and other assorted bureaucrats. In total, the city’s school system employs more than 136,000 persons, a ratio of about one employee for every nine students.

When asked what makes the Catholic schools stand apart from the public schools, Ms. Murphy of the Archdiocese said the differences are a lower average teacher salary, less top-down management, an administrative consciousness toward cost-effectiveness, and small schools. New York’s Catholic schools have few assistant principals. They don’t centrally budget everything that goes into making a school run.

Jay Greene of the Manhattan Institute’s Center for Civic Innovation had a different way of expressing the bureaucratic obstacles to improving the city’s education. In the Catholic schools, teachers and administrators “trust each other,” he said. Because the teachers share a sense of philanthropy and there are fewer rules and administrators to enforce them, Catholic schools offer a better work environment and a sense of mission, something that allows the schools to attract teachers who will work for about half the salary of a New York City teacher.

Granted, some of the Catholic school teachers are nuns and priests. By definition, these teachers do not have families to support or other expenses that non-clerical teachers have. But, despite the popular stereotypes to the contrary, Catholic school teachers are not primarily nuns — religious figures make up a minority of these teachers. Also, the public school system does provide some services to the private religious school system, such as transportation. These costs are added to the Department of Education’s budget and diminish the per-pupil cost of Catholic schools. Catholic schools also have a limited special education program. Still, says Mr. Greene, the per-pupil costs would still be much lower for Catholic education with these factors figured in.

A sense of philanthropy is hardly something that is missing from potential teachers in New York’s pool. The New York City Teaching Fellows program saw a 21% increase in applications this year. What is missing is the sense of urgency. Schools Chancellor Joel Klein has made some steps toward improving the way the schools do business —laying off administrators and moving to privatize some of the school system’s accounting functions. But the city faces a $6 billion budget gap and already high taxes. It’s hard to see how the politicians can go on claiming there is no room to cut when the Catholic schools are educating students at half the price that the city bureaucrats are — and with better results on standardized tests. Parents seem to realize this: When private philanthropists offered 7,500 scholarships to New York City private and parochial schools in 1999, applications were filed for nearly 170,000 students.

The city could try wrestling concessions out of its unions, laying off administrators, and increasing class sizes until it could educate a student for what it costs the Archdiocese — and then try improving quality so that it attains the same results.

But a simpler way might be to just offer a publicly funded voucher to any student who wants one, and let the schools sprout up to fill the need. If the demand for vouchers is still at 1999 levels, that would mean 162,500 students channeled out of the public school system. Assume that it costs $7,000 to educate each one — far more than the current level of spending on Catholic schools, but enough to adjust for whatever backdoor transportation funding the public schools are currently providing and for some of the capital costs of space for the influx of new students. The city still saves $406 million.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: catholiclist
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
This is slightly off the subject of catholic schools, but a couple of years ago there were figures showing that the state of Utah was 4th from the bottom in school expenditures but 4th from the top in test scores, so there must be more to it than just money.
21 posted on 12/31/2002 8:26:04 PM PST by henderson field
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To: Textide
Don't forget the nuns! My second grade teacher, a nun, was quick with a ruler on the back of one's hand.

She must've been a novice,
the older ones used yardsticks and went for the rump.
Yardsticks weren't too bad, but heaven help you if they decided to use one of those round, wooden "pointers" that were about the same length. Those suckers hurt.

22 posted on 12/31/2002 8:30:54 PM PST by Willie Green
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To: nypokerface; *Catholic_list; father_elijah; nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via Freepmail if you would like to be added to or removed from the Catholic Discussion Ping list.

23 posted on 12/31/2002 8:47:07 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Straight Vermonter
**They choose to accept the difference in salary because the students are there to learn and the job is more fun and rewarding.**

This one factor makes a huge difference for any teacher!
24 posted on 12/31/2002 8:50:28 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
**Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?**

Good analogy.
25 posted on 12/31/2002 8:52:40 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nypokerface
Thanks very much for this thread! When I was in grade school and high school in Chicago(many moons ago),only nuns(Sisters of Mercy)taught and back then,they were the greatest group of sisters! God bless them. There was one sister,I remember who while at the blackboard when abruptly turn around when she heard the girls start whispering and giggling.She'd walk down the each row with that long pointer in hand and her long rosary beads swinging on her side belt and believe you me, you could hear a pin drop! Sister Mary Margaret never hit you but she made you BELIEVE THAT SHE WOULD! hehehe!
26 posted on 12/31/2002 8:56:06 PM PST by Lady In Blue
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?

About two years ago, a lawsuit was brought by two small seminaries against the state of Texas. These two schools were denied the right to confer undergraduate degrees because they refused to be accredited. They refuse accrediation because they claim it will result in a change of thier chosen curriculum, therefore destroying their academic focus.

So, maybe the Feds won't do it, but some government entity probably will.

27 posted on 12/31/2002 9:32:03 PM PST by SWake
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To: Salvation
Please!
28 posted on 12/31/2002 11:05:42 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian
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To: SWake
It can happen, especially as our country becomes less and less Christian, that's what I'm talking about.
29 posted on 12/31/2002 11:07:46 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian
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To: wideawake
In Milwaukee area, teachers earn (after about 5 years) in the upper $30's/low $40's.

What makes the compensation worthwhile is that health insurance is 100% paid and there is almost no deductible/copay required. In addition, the school districts contribute 12% of the teacher's gross income to a pension plan.

And, of course, there's the 6-months vacation/holiday time.
30 posted on 01/01/2003 4:50:57 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Textide
My second grade teacher - also a nun - was, in my eyes, an angel. I never knew her to wield a ruler. Now, my third grade teacher - not a nun - was the meanest you-know-what you ever saw. She was handier with a handle brush than any nun could ever be! Only attended Catholic school for three years - (1st thru third grade) but it brings back wonderful memories.
31 posted on 01/01/2003 5:20:30 AM PST by sneakers
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To: Willie Green
but heaven help you if they decided to use one of those round, wooden "pointers" that were about the same length. Those suckers hurt.

I had a ballet teacher that used one of those:

"You're sickling your ankles!" Whack!

"Tuck in that butt!" Whack!

A pointer to the ankle bone really hurts.

32 posted on 01/01/2003 7:35:45 AM PST by nina0113
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To: Salvation
This subject gets me fired up.

In our city the public schools have been in a state of "academic emergency" for at least three years. Only 55% of high schoolers enrolled in the city schools attend.

So, what do the powers that be suggest will fix the problem? Brand new school buildings!

We had another tax increase for the schools. This is one of many tax increases and they keep telling us that everything will be fine with the schools as soon as they get more taxes coming in to fix the problem.

My kids go to catholic school. The building is old and in worse condition than many of the public schools they are going to tear down.

Politics.

33 posted on 01/01/2003 7:51:29 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: 1john2 3and4
Blue Collar is right; the only question is how long it will take for the State to assert control.

That's more or less the 'good news;' it probably won't happen until your kids are out of the school of your choice.

Why is Blue Collar right?

Think as a taxpayer. For the tax dollar, you expect a certain level of performance, whether measured by ACT, SAT, or any other standard you can name. You also expect accountability: the recipient of your dollars should be able to tell you exactly what your dollar went toward.

Well, in what will be the ONLY time in HISTORY, the States will demand accountability. Of course, in this case, the accountability will be demanded from "voucher schools." (Heavens, not from other State employees!!!!)

Ultimately, the State will wrest control to themselves.
34 posted on 01/01/2003 10:35:27 AM PST by ninenot
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To: ResultsNetwork
I, for one, am perfectly willing to bet decent dollars that 75%+ of the public school teachers would do a very good job and be happy as clams with an arrangement similar to the one in the Catholic schools.

The bureaucrats, the State mandates, and the general silliness that public schools throw money away on is just mind-boggling, and the faculty doesn't like it one bit...
35 posted on 01/01/2003 10:37:53 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
Not quite.

But they are dictating the sports program's priorities.

There's another thread somewhere regarding the "women's participation" requirement forced on schools which accept ANY KIND of Federal dollars.

By the way, Notre Dame is not all that Catholic, either. Any school which sponsors "The Vagina Monologues" is simply NOT a Catholic school.
36 posted on 01/01/2003 10:40:27 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Willie Green
In my High School, the Jesuits used a sawed-off golf driver. THEN they made you bend over and hold your ankles while they applied it.

When that broke, they fashioned a paddle about 8" wide, and drilled holes in it to decrease wind resistance.
37 posted on 01/01/2003 10:43:33 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Blue Collar Christian; ninenot
If we don't let the public funds into our private schools

my money! NOT public funds. that's the crucial element...so, i demand accountability, ok, the gov. has no business here. theyre out of the loop.

i do grant your point that govt will seek to regulate, co-opt, interfere, and propagandize. theyre becoming quite efficient indeed. BUT with vouchers, what USED TO BE public money is now the original owner's (of that money). it is NOT public money, therefore not subject to the same control. (somethin smells fishy when you keep opposing vouchers based on an erroneous premise)

38 posted on 01/01/2003 10:56:52 AM PST by 1john2 3and4
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?

Exactly! you can expand that to 10's of thousands of schools after WW II. This even included semenaries.

Of course the money went to the students not the schools.
It was the students that supported or withdrew from a curriculum, not the government. Precisely the same is true of vouchers.

Godspeed, The Dilg
39 posted on 01/01/2003 11:13:53 AM PST by thedilg
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To: Cap'n Crunch
**My kids go to catholic school. The building is old and in worse condition than many of the public schools they are going to tear down.**

Aand I daresay their education is much improved over the public school system. Another point of view -- parochial and private school kids are there to learn, not play, socialize, learn about the opposite sex, dance, play football and basketball (although some Catholic schools have excellent teams) or date.

They are there to learn........and their parents keep tabs on them because the parents pay and are invovled in one way or another.

And the most important factor of all.........these kids pray!
40 posted on 01/01/2003 3:37:11 PM PST by Salvation
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