Engineering Grad Looking for work -- Where are the Jobs???

Engineering Discussion Board 12-27-2002 ^ | FR Post Christmas 2002 | Various

[A. Pole]

What would say to an aspiring EE?

Study Chinese? (Indians know English)

[Jhoffa_]

Gee, thanks..

I feel so much better.

[Alberta's Child]

A couple of things I've noticed is that engineers who work in highly-specialized areas tend to do well when things are hot but do poorly when things in their area of expertise are slow.

Some career counselers will tell you that answering an ad in the newspaper is one of the worst ways for a professional to land a good job. These ads generate a large number of responses, which makes it impossible for the prospective employer to review resumes in any detail. In my opinion, the best way to land a position these days is through personal contacts in professional societies, alumni groups, etc.

I'd also suggest that you mail your resume instead of e-mailing it, unless specifically instructed otherwise. Employers are inundated with resumes because it is so easy for job applicants to send mass e-mailings, and I've found that a resume with a good cover letter sent via snail-mail will attract a lot of attention just because it stands out.

[BigBobber]

Good luck. You're going to have your hands full when the Baby Boomer engineers retire. On the bright side, you'll probably be able to charge a premium for your services because of the shortage.

[VOA]

bump

[Cate]

JOIN THE MILITARY.

[lewislynn]

"" labor on foreign soil""

[speekinout]

Most MBA think they will be commanding salaries of 200K and will be directors or VPs without any real knowledge.

This one reminds me of my Master's program. I was in a Master's program paid for by my employer, and I took a couple of electives in the Business school. It was in the mid-80's, and the rate for a top notch MBA was about $100k. One guy was telling me that there were 20 in his class, and they already knew that only 12 would get jobs from on-campus recruiters, and chances of getting hired other ways were dismal.
The rest were thinking about going on to law school. :-(

[vannrox]

LOL...Ex Navy Myself.

[vannrox]

What would say to an aspiring EE?

Join a union. Or, work for the Government.

[Red Jones]

You're 100% correct TruthNtegrity. I'll add that if you haven't got experience working as engineer/programmer and seen how things work first hand or at least looked closely at h1b, then you just don't understand h1b. In that h1b is a truly terrible program. It is indentured servitude. It is short-circuiting the free market for labor. It is discouraging americans from developing valuable skills. There is a lot of insanity in our nation's public life and our policies relating to the economy. H1b is a desperate effort to helpp corporations, but it merely ads to the insanity, it does not combat it at all. The really bad economic policies are not addressed, h1b only pits some classes of people against other classes of people and produces nothing.

[Jhoffa_]

A union?

Surely you jest..

No, no, no.. Jhoffa_ don't work for no union.

[Red Jones]

you're going to study electrical engineering??? First, be sure to read Professor matloff's big 200 page research paper. It's called 'Debunking the Myth Of Engineer/Software Labor Shortage' or something similar. Find it on the net.

In that paper Matloff sites an american born fellow of asian descent (I mention he's asian because many people feel people of american stock can't do this work) busted his but enough to get into Princeton. He got a degree in Electrical engineering. He was a 4.0 student. Then he got a graduate degree at yale also in EE, again straight A's. Then he spent 2 years trying to find a job, didn't get a single job offer. This was in mid-1990's.

matloff's whole point is that we've created a situation through market intervention so that americans are sent very strong market signals to not study engineering or programming because these jobs are for foreigners.

If you look carefully at h1b, then you'll see that the h1b visa holders are given advantages in the job market that americans don't by law qualify for. Americans can't sell their labor in 6 year time slots, Americans don't receive US citizenship in return for 6 years of labor, so from an employer's point of view there are strong reasons to believe that an american can't compete due to these legal disadvantages given to them by their own government.

If all h1b's could switch jobs at will just as an american can, then a large amount of their advantages in the job market would go away.

On the other hand, if you've got god-given talent and you want to use it, then are you going to let a government policy intimidate you? Only if you have sense. Some people don't have sense. People in this later category are sometimes the great achievers, this policy is meant to intimidate you? Are you going to let it?

[Red Jones]

my strong sympathies to you; and my 2 cents to you is that your high level of intelligence and good integrity level have caused the world todiscriminate against you in effect IMO. It is a tough blow, but in my opinion it is something to actually feel good about. Would you rather be stupid and of low integrity?

[Red Jones]

you're not old school, you're just a dope. One can see that the little fascist in you really likes being in the army doesn't it?

A few comments ago you said that anybody who can make an if/else statement in some language thinks he ought to get 100k. No, mr. ignorant, please don't speak. Those high salaries came about because of market forces, because somebody voluntarilly decided to pay them that based on real work and a real need for that work. The vast majority of people who study programming don't make it much less at those high salaries. It is only the few who earn that high pay who get it, that's the way it always has been.

But h1b is a big intervention into the market, it is not free market at all. The h1b's are not really free to switch jobs at all. Non-americans shouldn't even be eligible to come and live in america to work jobs. Anybody who wants tohire a foreigner for any reason should go to the foreign country and hire them. But if you're going to do business here, then you hire americans, that is a simple rule even an army guy with a bright shiny helmet and dull brain should be able to understand.

Our government should serve us, don't you agree? Or are you the fascist who says it is the other way around? If a government does not serve the people it rules over, then it will become corrupt and tyrannical towards those people. Then it will send jack-booted army thugs in to beat them over the head and I see it will find some americans who take glee in that job.

[Jhoffa_]

..you're going to study electrical engineering???

I had considered it. It's been a hobby for me and it's something I enjoy. My father was an engineer for the phone company for years, brilliant guy.

I am not as smart as him however, so I think maybe I used the wrong term when I said engineering. I had hoped there is a need for service personnel with all the automation in the service and manufacturing industries.

I have a sporadic speech defect that makes me want to get out of a position where I have to deal with the public, sell things or address a crowd. I would be more than happy to service equipment or work in a dark corner somewhere.

As long as it's doing something I enjoy, I wouldn't mind a bit.

[Red Jones]

well, then don't let h1b intimidate you out of doing a type of work you'll like. Proceed without fear. But remember that h1b is a system that will discriminate against you viciously if you go down that path. You'll pay the price. People don't understand, h1b is an ethnic cleansing program, the rules are rigged against americans and then jack-ass americans willfully pretend not to understand how the american and non-american groups are divided up, separated and treated differently in the market because of laws made in washington with the real advantages going to the non-americans.

[Jhoffa_]

I agree with you about this H1B business.

It irks me because Conservative philosophy dictates that union pressure or other means of leveraging the federal government against your employer is out. No minimum wage either, uh-uh. You are expected to go out into the market and earn what you are worth.. It's simple and it's fair.

However, the other side of the coin (the one no one bothers to mention during these discussions) is that employers are expected to compete also, they are expected to compete for your labor.

They don't wish to do this, instead they want to stack the deck with imported labor. So, the net result is you have to compete, they (to a large degree) do not.

Simple economics says that when too much labor is chasing too few jobs, wages and benefits decrease. This is also why I am not big on throwing open to borders and letting others have "the jobs Americans won't do" The reason Americans won't do them is because employers aren't willing to pay to have them done. If they have a job that really has to be done, then someone will make a decent wage at it or the employer will have to do without.

That's the right way to get wages and benefits, not with union pressure.. but with more competition between employers.

^ Imho..

[Dominic Harr]

H1-Bs Just The Symptom

American IT is in trouble, and not because of H1B.

Or rather, the H1-B program is just a *symptom* of the problem. America Big IT is where American Big Auto Makers were in the 1970s. Replacing American workers with H1-Bs leads to longer time-to-market, a lower quality end-product, and lower costs. The lower cost temporarily raises the stock price.

The modern IT 'Pointy-Haired Manager' only cares about the stock price. And that's what fuels the system.

The Real Problem is the 'Dilbert' World
The Real Prophet of Truth for the modern world is Scott Adams. His strip, 'Dilbert', chronicles what we in the IT industry see every single day -- massive mismanagement on a scale that would not be allowed in almost any other industry. You can not BELIEVE the things we all see.

75% of all corporate IT projects FAIL.

It is an epidemic.

To be a project manager for an Auto plant, you have to have quite a bit of knowledge about auto manufacturing. To be a project manager in just about *any* other industry, you have to be skilled and experienced in the product and production methods involved.

But as Scott Adams shows daily -- not in IT. For some reason, Project Managers almost never have any skills or experience in software development. Modern 'Big IT' is so poorly managed, and they use their power to squash (buy/copy/threaten/coerce distributors/etc) the entrepeneurs who would carry us into the next tech revolution.

It Has To Be Software
The tech revolution can't carry much farther on hardware. With the exception of bandwidth, the average PC user has far more technical power at their fingertips than they currently need.

If the 'tech revolution' is to move forward, it will be on the backs of software.

H1-B Outsourcing Does Not Save Money
I specifically work in my company's project management group. I see the numbers.

H1-Bs are *very* skilled people, on average. I've worked with many. But in the same way that Japanese Engineers tend to be very skilled. They grow up in a system that discourages individuality. They are very good at doing something 'off the rack'. If you tell them exactly what you need, and how you want it done, they excel.

But that describes almost no software design, unfortunately.

The Results Are Already Coming In
Giving the work to H1-B's is not profitable. It takes 3-4 times as long to come up with a finished product, and the quality of the end product is almost always far, far lower. Not because they aren't skilled, but because software design is not something that you can teach in a college. Design skill requires independent thinking, creativity, etc. That which Americans excel at.

One of my favorite examples is Dell's Phone Support, here in Austin. They outsourced all their phone support to India, and it now stinks. It's like pulling teeth to get any help.

But the executives in modern IT have no concern about the end-product. The 'Dilbert' "Pointy-Haired Manager" is so amazingly short-sighted and inept it's incredible.

Programmer Pricing In A 'Free' Market
The IT world is in a similar labor situation as the NFL once was. The management reaps almost all the reward, and the 'front-line' workers get almost nothing.

If you can develop code 3 times faster than someone else, you deserve 3 times the salary.

Do you think this happens? Not on your life.

Typically, only management gets bonuses. Management makes far more than 'talent'. In my company, I was actually told that if I wanted to rise any higher I'd have to go into management.

A 'Management' Revolution
Once, almost all quality TVs were made in America.

Once, the American Auto dominated the world.

The American Govt is now so mismanaged, it's hard to imagine how it can stand. America's most hopeful industry, IT, is killing itself.

The only thing that can save us is some sort of 'management' revolution.

But remember, my opinion is worth *exactly* what you just paid for it.

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[Porterville]

Buy a frickn' house and sell it if you want to make some doe; stop belly-aching and get some gumption. My God, these engineering students were suppose to be the brightest of the Universities.