Statue of Abe Lincoln: "...a slap in the face of a lot of brave men..."

The Cincinnati Enquirer ^ | Friday, December 27, 2002 | AP

[yankeedame]

Friday, December 27, 2002

Lincoln statue won't be embraced by all

The Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va. - Abraham Lincoln is returning to the capital of the Confederacy, much to the chagrin of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Five days before the Civil War ended in April 1865, the president and his youngest child, Tad, traveled to still-smoldering Richmond soon after Southern forces abandoned the city in flames. On April 5, 2003, the 138th anniversary of that visit, a bronze statue of the pair commissioned by the United States Historical Society will be unveiled at the Civil War Visitor Center of the National Park Service.

"Here is a national hero, a small boy, and a beautiful city by the James River, all united again," said Robert Kline, chairman of the nonprofit group society, which works on behalf of museums and other groups on projects of historic and artistic value. "This time Lincoln's in Richmond for all time."

Richmond, home to towering statues of Confederacy figures including Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and J.E.B. Stuart, was abandoned after Union forces led by Gen. Ulysses S. Grant attacked on April 2, 1965.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans view the Lincoln statue as "a slap in the face of a lot of brave men and women who went through four years of unbelievable hell fighting an invasion of Virginia led by President Lincoln," Brag Bowling, the SCV Virginia commander, said Thursday. The group had only recently learned of the statue, and had no immediate plans to protest.

The life-size statue by sculptor David Frech will show Lincoln and his son on a bench against a granite wall. The words "To Bind Up The Nation's Wounds" will be etched into a capstone.

[wideawake]

Any definition would require other nations recognizing your sovereignity, and not a single nation recognized the confederacy as an independent country.

Yet, every major power was more than happy to carry on unofficial diplomatic relationships with Confederate ambassadors. Why would the British Foreign Secretary waste his precious time holding extensive meetings with private individuals who claimed to represent a nonexistent country?

Was the US a sovereign country during the War of Independence? It declared itself as such although no one, not even the French acknowledged it.

Richmond was, and always has been, a city in the United States so Lincoln had every right to go there.

Richmond was an English city when it was founded in 1737. It became an American city when the US seceded from the British Empire. It became a Confederate city when Virginia seceded from the Union. It became an American city again after the Union reestablished military control over it in 1865.

[Ditto]

The Confederacy was an independent, sovereign nation for a few years by any empirical definition.

How many foreign embassies were located in Richmond? How many CSA ambassadors were recognized in foreign capitols?

[Ditto]

Was the US a sovereign country during the War of Independence? It declared itself as such although no one, not even the French acknowledged it.

The Dutch, French, Russian and Spanish all recognized the United States in 1777.

[laotzu]

"You are the worst type of human if you must revert to placing a scourge of humanity on me in order to argue...However the CSA were MORE wrong...I have never disparaged the people of the south nor claimed superiority"

No disparagment, or claims of superiority? Just those who are more wrong, & those who are more right(eouss).

Such primacy; such overt posturing of superiority mandates there be an identifiable group of inferiors. You have certainly named, and scorned(in the name of God) the South as yours.

Despite your frequent, and loud preachings of condemnation; you proudly exercise the exact same hate-mongering, egotistical finger-pointing, mob-enciting bigotry as your slaving forefathers.

A Christian?!! You?!!!

Certainly, you flock with a herd....but hardly that of The Lamb. (when you find yourself at judgement day, be sure to whip out that "were more wrong" thing)

[Ditto]

Why would the British Foreign Secretary waste his precious time holding extensive meetings with private individuals who claimed to represent a nonexistent country?

Why did he not accept their credentials?

[wideawake]

Because he did not want to offend the United States by openly taking sides with its rival.

Kind of the way many European powers treated Taiwan after WWII.

[laotzu]

"You show your true spirit with this comment"

Hypocrits who hide their shame by loudly, and constantly invoking the name of God is an old & tired sham.

You have decided you are more worthy than 'them', and angrily defend that stance. You used to call 'them' niggers, and now call 'them' the South. No change, no difference.

This practice of yours was repulsive then, and remains so now. This facade of 'Christain' is tired and see-through. I understand the KKK starts their rally with a prayer too.

[wideawake]

France recognized the US in February 1778.

The Dutch Republic publicly acknowledged the US on April 19, 1782 by receiving John Adams as ambassador.

The Spanish signed a treaty with France in April 1779 stipulating specifically that Spain would NOT diplomatically recognize the US until they were successful in prosecuting the war.

I'm not sure exactly when Russia recognized the US, but I doubt it was earlier than France or Holland - i.e. not in 1777.

It should also be remembered that England was in conflict with France, Spain and Holland over various colonial claims among other things, and that England had defeated France in the Seven Years War only twelve years before.

In other words, these powers recognized the US in order to anger the British with whom they were at odds.

However, no European power was engaged in serious strategic conflicts with the US in 1861 - therefore, unlike in the case of England, they had no clear strategic motive for recognizing the Confederacy.

If Britian had been living in peace with its European neighbors for the 50 years preceding the War of Independence, it's doubtful that any European power would have gone out of its way to anatagonize the British by recognizing the US.

[laotzu]

"I think more than one "Defender of the South" on this thread is a cold, hard RACIST"

Hardly a great mental leap. Racism is everywhere, and always will be. It is to be found among women, the freckled, the left handed, Democrats, circus folk, yankees, paraplegics, music lovers, Christians, etc... It is a natural human feeling, and does not hide.

That you only object to racism in the "Defender of the South" group is illustrative of the overt bigotry in your character.

"Do I have any proof? Nope. Will I name names? Nope...I just "Think it"...."out" those who are racist and get them off this fine site once and for all.

All the mental dexterity, and desire to purge certain types for the sake of purity, as the KKK.

There is nothing wrong with prejudice by itself. It is the advocation that others join in your prejudice, as you have done here, that is disgusting.

[wideawake]

Or putting a statue of Jefferson Davis in Washington, D.C.? Oh wait, they did that.

Jefferson Davis was a US Senator and a hero of the Mexican War. Lincoln never served as a legislator in Richmond nor did his military service in the skirmish known as the Black Hawk War have a direct relevance to Virginia.

Where is the statue of Davis located? I've visited our nation's capital many times and I've never seen it.

[Non-Sequitur]

Why would the British Foreign Secretary waste his precious time holding extensive meetings with private individuals who claimed to represent a nonexistent country?

The confederate representatives were there in a vain attempt to get the British government to recognize them. The fact is that Her Majesty's government did not recognize confederate independence. Neither did France or Russia or any other country in the world.

Was the US a sovereign country during the War of Independence? It declared itself as such although no one, not even the French acknowledged it.

Eventually both the French and the Spanish acknowledged American independence and came into the war on the American side. Prior to that no country recognized the colonies as an independent country.

Richmond was an English city when it was founded in 1737. It became an American city when the US seceded from the British Empire. It became a Confederate city when Virginia seceded from the Union. It became an American city again after the Union reestablished military control over it in 1865.

The colonies rebelled. Secession implies that the actions were legally allowed. They did not pretend that their actions were legal nor were they surprised that the British tried to prevent their actions. Richmond became a city of the United States following the end of the Revolutionary War and remained such from then to now.

[Johnny Shear]

Hardly a great mental leap. Racism is everywhere, and always will be. It is to be found among women, the freckled, the left handed, Democrats, circus folk, yankees, paraplegics, music lovers, Christians, etc... It is a natural human feeling, and does not hide.

I have NO DOUBT that the percentage of racists within the "Neo-Reb" population is much, MUCH higher than in any of the groups you have listed.

How about you? And remember, you can lie to me but you can't lie to yourself...And in the end, that's all that matters.

[wideawake]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there were strong geopolitical motivations for European powers to recognize the USA.

There were no such motivations in the CSA's favor - the environment in Europe was quite different.

The Confederate attempt to gain recognition from Britain was ultimately in vain, true. But it isn't as if there was just one furtive meeting between the CSA and the British Foreign Secretary.

[berserker]

All Lincoln had to do to stop the war was not start it in the first place ... (post 105)

That's pretty good revisionism, given the initial shots fired at Ft. Sumter.

[laotzu]

"the percentage of racists within the "Neo-Reb" population is..MUCH higher"

And you base that on....? Can you offer any logic other than personal bigotry?

"How about you?"

I do my best to exercise clear judgement.

I recognize the obligation to be discriminating in what my children are taught, how my wife is adored, what will be profitable for my company, and what hopes God wants me to fulfill.

If I choose to have a prejudice against....lets say women, and therefore refuse to do any business with them; it is I, not women that suffer. Women would find my competitors most happy to displace me.

It is when I advocate my competitors to join with my prejudice that mere stupidity becomes evil.

You have eagerly joined in the advocation of prejudice against the South. As you have already recognized, you are unable to explain any logic or rational for it....you just know it. Stupidity inflamed into evil has no logic to its reason....it just knows it.

[laotzu]

What is a "Neo-Reb"?

[wideawake]

Ft. Sumter was under lease from the state of South Carolina. It was not being used by the federal government at that time.

When South Carolina seceded, the feds immediately moved to fortify it, knowing that South Carolina would probably terminate the lease under their rights as spelled out in the lease contract.

South Carolina did just that - informing the federal government that the lease was terminated. The federal government decided not to abide by the terms of the lease that it had negotiated and by occupying South Carolina land by force.

[laotzu]

It is notable that the overwhelming number of violent racial conflicts ocurr in the North. Is that where most "Neo-Reb" types are?

[berserker]

Or putting a statue of Jefferson Davis in Washington, D.C.? Oh wait, they did that ... (post 351)

The statue of Jefferson Davis at right was a gift from the State of Mississippi in 1931.

(Let's hold off on any comments in this thread regarding recent events involving Senator Lott. After all, he did not arrange this, and there could not possibly be any connection between his recent controversy and the decision by Mississippi to erect a statue of Jefferson Davis in Washington DC. There are other FR threads to discuss Senator Lott and his various comments and apologies.)

The statue is bronze and is located in Statuary Hall in Washington, DC.

Apparently each state gets to donate two statues. Not all states have done this, though. Nevada, New Mexico, and North Dakota could still donate one statue. (Maybe there is a rule regarding states that start with the letter N.)

Here is a link to the federal government's description of the statue and Davis.

[Non-Sequitur]

The Confederate attempt to gain recognition from Britain was ultimately in vain, true. But it isn't as if there was just one furtive meeting between the CSA and the British Foreign Secretary.

One meeting or a hundred, it all led to nothing. Which is puzzling if the claims of other southron supporters is true and the confederacy consumed the majority of all imports. One would think that the European countries would support their largest customer.