Growing dissatisfaction among career engineers

The Raleigh News & Observer ^ | Thursday, December 26, 2002 | TERRY COSTLOW, CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR

[fortress]

One time I was a young field engineer on a jobsite and one of our welders came up to me to ask me about my profession and how much I was making.
I told him and he said: "Never mind I think I will keep doing what I am doing".

[tubebender]

Willie, you need to buy all your newly laid off friends the little book "WHO MOVED MY CHEESE" by Spencer Johnson. It's a parody on lifes changes.

[Cvengr]

The cutting and pasting might greatly increase the ease of producing a deliverable for a particular contract, but such is not the foundation of professional engineering.

I'm up to my armpits in projects where mediocre engineers without ethic or ownership seek to churn out a deliverable without even making field verifications or to the contrary, hone a professional skill to evade cyclical review processes in hopes for milking a dry cow for modifications.

Good money won't turn a bad AE good.

Unfortunately for the profession, too many people with access to PCs, a spreadsheet, AutoCAD, and a handful of past drawings believe they have the acumen to design as professionals. Concurrently, every tradesman and his brother now believes they have the ability to design because they can afford a spreadsheet, copier, ACAD, and can knock out a plot plan or elevation or detail.

In the last 10 years, I've seen the profession slip considerably. Construction projects get knocked out today with about 10-20 cents on the dollar of actual value as compared to 20 years ago.

One advantage to this situation is that the lack of professionalism inherant in many designs today, insure job security for engineers in the future.

A disadvantage is that so much of the professions have become codified, that innovative unique productive design improvements are difficult to find today, simply because the bulk of financial obligations are directed to off-the-shelf, codified methods installed by tradesmen.

[Tax-chick]

Martyred sigh ... I think I'm tired of being an engineer's wife, already (8 years in industry, 8 months of unemployment ...) and we'll sell up and move to the farm. Lots of demand for goats, with the Moslems taking over the midwest ...

[alfa6]

IIRC one of the main faults in the Hyatt skywalk collapse was that the fabricator fudged on the installation. The plans called for a box beam suspended from a rod with a washer to help spread the load. Instead the fabricator used a pair of channel iron welded together, this resulted in a weaker beam than the box beam that was specified. Then to compound the error no washer or plate was used to help distribute the load forces where the nut met up with the bottom of the now welded beam. The result was that the washer pulled up through the welded joint resulting in the skywalk collpse that resuled in 110+ fatalaties and twice that number injured.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[TheDon]

"Lifelong learning is critical in this profession"

So true. If you aren't prepared to follow the above advice, do not become a software engineer!

[shotgun]

Well said!! most young engineers fresh out of school are thrown in front of a computer to do either ACAD or spreadsheet work without having the foggiest idea of how to design a project. My mentor had me do my calculations and some design work by hand so I could learn when the answer the computer gave me was wrong or at the very least re-check my inputs for correct data.

When you learn on the end of a survey rod, then design from that survey, then construction stake your design, and inspect it, design flaws show right up, and thus you apply those lessons to avoid more mistakes.

Becoming a PE should be like an apprenticeship. 4 years school plus 4 years WORKING at a Professional level in the field. Sorry to say that that 4 years working has become sitting behind the computer and drawing lines or creating spreadsheets.

[Tax Government]

Software skills are about twice as perishable as traditional engineering skills.

The dot-com boom created a Gold Rush for software engineering. Many software specialties-du-jour -- almost any Microsoft 'technology', for example -- have a 6-month halflife. Now that the engineering economy is back to NORMAL, i.e. BAD and HARSH, we hard-core folk can do what we do best -- survive.

Rule #1 for the unemployed: start work INSTANTLY on a new degree.

Rule #2: be prepared to live in a commune or under a bridge, if it means staying employed.

[Cvengr]

Engineering Physics curriculums are very good. Very similar to Materials Science curriculums, though, in that too many second rate institutions offer the degree and it appears to be a shortcut or mediocre path to become a professional engineer.

Same thing goes for guys with degrees in Physics or Chemistry or Mathematics. I have no doubt that those who matriculate, especially from most competitive institutions with those degrees are far better qualified than many marginal engineers, but unfortunately the people who initially screen resumes rarely comprehend the distinctions or 60%-95% of the screeners of resumes lack the ability to discern your abilities with those degrees.

Contractually and legally, in the practice of engineering one needs the PE. However, there are plenty of niches to perform work where the engineering skills provide an upper edge in contracting.

Much of the electronics and computer industry sidestepped the professions simply because demand exceeded supply of those skill sets, but IMHO, a handful of major computer and electronics firms need to be hauled into court to pay massive fines for avoiding the professions and assisting in their demise economically. Corporations which hired EEs to design their systems under the direction of non-engineering staff, IMHO, have set the industry and profession backwards 20 years. By promoting unqualified personnel into senior level positions they have promoted inefficient design mechanisms and instead have promoted a lower middleclass of technicians from the limited resources the nation had to create professionals. I suspect the next 20 years in the electronics and computer industry is going to weed out the money managers and MBAs, because the EE is in the critical path and the money is going to go elsewhere. Competition will drive the industry back towards professionalism, but not before a handful of tragic episodes I suspect where the guilty are praised and the innocent are blamed.

I digress, though,...Civil Engr, MechE, ElecE, CompSci/MathSci or Architect are the stable undergrad enginering related degrees for future growth. Some multidisciplinary programs exist, but I'd recommend securing one of the basic degrees either at the bachelors or master's level.

[DUMBGRUNT]

Kansas City Hyatt Regency Skywalk Collapse


http://em-jaturner.unl.edu/courses/em223/Group1/index.htm
Causes of Failure

1. Design Change of Walkway Supports
-single rod to double rod changed loading on joint
-occurred so rod wouldn’t have to be threaded
2. Did Not Meet Building Codes
-required that joints could support 151 kN
-designed so joints could support 91 kN
-one skywalk=288.9 kN; load on fourth floor joints=96 kN
3. Poor Construction
-improper wielding and connections
-inadequate building materials

[vannrox]

Consumer Product Firms don't hire PE's. No reason for it.

[fogarty]

The bosses I've worked for are arrogant, haughty, and arrogant people, who couldn't lead their own way out of a paper sack. In short I've come across one in ten managers that can actually LEAD. Engineers for the most part, do their job, and do it well.

[Cpu]

>>>>I'm an engineer, and the key to staying employed is the same as it is in any profession. Make yourself unique, think forward, and stay necessary.

I'm a toolmaker. The above should be posted on every high school/college advisors door.

cpu

Required toolmaker>engineer slam=
Toolmakers definition of an engineer - "Someone who can do for $100 what any fool can do for free."

(Sorry I couldn't help myself)

[Cvengr]

I'd disagree on the time to produce or mature a Civil/structural/Mech Engr. Greatly effected by the person's background and opportunities to apply themselves.

5-7 years academic work, hopefully coincident to field work to identify tools of the industry, then 2-4 years of professional caliber work experience works well.

Only problem is that we've experienced a generation where the PC has interrupted the professional experience workflow and experience development of junior engineers.

30 years ago an EIT or equivalent (prior to the EIT exam) might work as a draftsman to a registered PE in producing deliverables for the profession. This work coincidently provided hands-on experience and opportunity to follow professional identification and problem solving skills. Last 20 years, good PEs were able to design on the fly with PCs. Older PEs still tend to make notes on scratch paper and then direct draftsmen to churn out the drawings, but by no means is this the norm for younger PEs.

The industry tends to demand rapid designs, cyclical review, and focus on satisfying the funding source.

IMHO, the industries financing engineering efforts have not been stable enough to insure longevity in the supervising authorities sufficiently to recognize the merits of good to outstanding engineering efforts over the producables from mediocre design product. When the financing industries become more stable, engineering mediocrity will disappear. But show me one industry that hasn't undergone 'rightsizing/downsizing/layoffs' and I'll show you an area where some actual good design has evolved.

[Cvengr]

Good advice. Also I'd recommend any academic work for 4-7 years include about 4-8 courses in law or colateral work towards a J.D., include perhaps 15 hrs of accounting, and master graph theory.

[Buffalo Head]

There you go again! Another doom and gloom story about layoffs. What is your point?

[alfa6]

Yes, I looked at the same web page myself in formulating my reply. Even though the rods did not meet the building codes at the time, a stress analysis showed that they were more than capable of handling the load.

Yes it is true that the design change did not help the cause but the final two straws were (1) the fabricated box beam in place of the drawn(?) box beam and (2) failure to place a washer or plate where the beam met up with the nut thus placing all of the stess on where the nut met up with the welded seam on the fabricated box beam. Another slide or two past the one you posted stated this as I recall.

It has been speculatted that none of these flaws by themselves would have been fatal, the combination of all the flaws led to the domino effect resulting in the collapse of the skywalks.

IIRC the fabrication of the beam was featured prominently in the KC Star during the investigation of the collapse.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[Cvengr]

I also know that there are a lot of medical professionals, accountants, teachers and lawyers who are equally disgruntled with their selected professions. You could nearly write this article for any of those professions by merely changing the word "engineer".

Bingo. After a lot of hard spent soul searching and observation I attribute this mainly to the advent of the PC and high productivity software. All the professions must render a value to society. The mechanics of producing the deliverables in those professions all hinged upon the first the professional skills and then the mechanics to communicate those evaluations, frequently by paper.

For every seasoned professional, there were 10 to 100 tradesmen or subprofessionals in the same industries who aspired to perform work, past predicated upon professional review, but now a echanism existed where subprofessional work could generate just sufficient communication to direct workable solutions (at least short-term workable solutions viable for perhaps 1-4 years without professional approval)

Then the MBAs/yuppies marched into play seeking mammon.

The response time of the clients to identify subprofessional insufficient design was greater than the longevity of the clients directing work.

Doctors were redirected into PPOs or Coops and HMOs merely as well educated technicians and their prognoses were replaced by JCAHO standards.

Accountants were redirected to corporate mergers and due diligence evaluations of competitors to seize marketshare, while their accounts became spreadsheet manipulations by bookkeepers.

Lawyers had their actions prepared by paralegals and codified rulings promoted out of court settlements over sincere dedication to the law.

Engineers have had their designs codified and regulated to the point that well engineered designs today are frequently not approved because they aren't understood by subprofessionally trained inspectors only familiar with local codified standards and municipal funding mechanisms.

IMHO, The professions are still more stable and robust than their counterparts in the trades.

[Cvengr]

Consumer Product Firms don't hire PE's. No reason for it.

There are enough laws on the books emphasizing the exclusivity of engineering work to the domain of registered engineers to entice a plethora of trial lawyers to go after every major consumer product firm and provide ample financial justification to re-establish the profession.

IMHO, the professions have been targets as a sideproduct of political machinations of socialists from communistic leanings. The ol' bougeousie to be first eliminated. Notice how all the functions of Environmental Engineering were the prior domains of Civil Engineering, Chemistry, Biology, and Architecture. Yet the cofers which should be directed to those professions are redirected to subprofessional regulators controlling 'Environmental Engineering'.

[Krafty123]

Another question I haven't gotten a straight answer for yet :-) Part of the problem is that the curriculum is very varied from school to school. At Pitt the idea is to prepare one to work in....(I have no idea)... or to go to Grad school (in EE, MSE, or Phys). Since it covers almost the whole Honors Physics curriculum, I guess it would be particularly well suited for Aerospace & R&D.