Posted on 12/23/2002 1:21:54 PM PST by Incorrigible
Stem cells: Give us the cures, spare us the sermon
Sunday, December 22, 2002
[Newark, NJ] -- Paul Byrne has been a political operative in Jersey City for 25 years. He is one of those guys for whom politics is both vocation and avocation. He knows everybody in Democratic politics, and everybody knows him.
Nine years ago, Byrne was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, which has led to a retina condition called macular degeneration. At 57, and despite two operations on both eyes, he has lost 98 percent of his sight. But he keeps up with the news because four or five friends call and read him the newspapers.
Among the stories that came to him this way was a piece about a breakthrough in stem cell research in India that has led to the successful restoration of damaged retinas.
It left him furious. It is a fury directed at President George W. Bush, who is an opponent of embryonic stem cell research because the technique results in the destruction of embryos. Accordingly, Bush has ordered that federal funding be denied for this kind of research. And never mind that the embryos at issue are those left over from in-vitro procedures at pregnancy clinics and would be destroyed in any event.
So, freeze in perpetuity superfluous embryos created in a lab to induce birth, and you are doing the Lord's work. Destroy embryos after their stem cells are extracted in an attempt to cure people suffering from a dozen different diseases, and you are in league with Satan. Insert a recipient's DNA into a stem cell to reduce chances the body will reject it and you are paving the way for human cloning.
Last week the state Senate passed a bill that would make New Jersey the second state in the nation to legalize embryonic stem cell research. (NJ Senate Votes to Harvest Babies for body parts (My Title)) The bill is sponsored by Richard Codey, the Democratic leader in the Senate. It passed in a party-line vote with most Republicans abstaining. It passed over the objections of the Roman Catholic Church and various anti-abortion allies. The Codey legislation may be altered a tad but Gov. James E. McGreevey is a supporter and it is going to become law.
Not surprisingly, Paul Byrne is an enthusiastic supporter of the Codey bill. It may help him see again. He believes it's good science and good politics in a state chockablock in pharmaceutical research firms.
Of the opponents, he says, "They are the very people who believed in miracles, yet they would deny me my miracle." And they are hard at work.
Joan Quigley is a Democratic assemblywoman from Hudson County. She is being flooded with form letters informing her that the Codey bill "is not part of God's plan."
"I tell them that it's more important that God help those to whom he's already given life," Quigley says.
For years now, I've been reading about the promise of stem cells as a cure for a bunch of diseases. Parkinson's disease as often as not heads up the list. This interests me because I've had Parkinson's disease for about six years now. I'm not complaining. If you have to get a heretofore incurable, degenerative disease, this one is not the worst. Still, it hasn't been much fun and it's nice to know there's a potential cure out there.
So I could do without President Bush playing politics with my future by buying into the religious right's contention that it knows what God is thinking and God believes the destruction of embryos in course of research isn't much different than killing babies.
As for the Catholic Church, if the bishops want to take the position they know the mind of God on the question of embryonic research, so be it. But they might want to think about confining their efforts to people who still put stock in what they have to say. Their moralizing rings a little hollow these days.
Let God and me handle this. If the bishops don't mind, I'd like the opportunity to be treated if and when the researchers come up with the right technique.
And I'm willing to take my chances that God won't make me out to be a mass murderer.
Not for commercial use. For educational and discussion purposes only.
Don't confuse the selfish and bloodthirsty with facts. Mr Mc Laughlin is another pro death liberial who rationalizes evil as noble. BTW Mr McLaughlin, God will not be happy.
I presume you are qualified to comment on what is and is not useful research? C'mon, you would completely shut down a legitimite area of research using a flimsy excuse. I'm not buying.
It goes without saying that I don't buy the "harvest and kill" emotional appeal, either. Save it.
The proper term is a "zygote" if it has implanted in the uterine wall, "embryo" if it has not.
Hold your fire on the slogans until a target is visible.
Wrong. Every embryo is human. What else could they be? Spinach? Sponges?
These embryos are dead babies -- nothing more, nothing less. They should be given Christian burial, not hacked to bits to provide spare parts for other people.
Better a long, lingering painful death from some horrible disease than one minute of extra life at the price of human blood. There are worse things that can happen to a man than disease and dying.
Yes, I think so.
You seem to think rights are forever, if not fought for.You advocate a "willing" transaction betwen two vastly unequal participants, even if it is unarguably loathesome, as long as you, or the people you personnally approve of, needs are met.
And finally, you bypass medical ethics, and blame religion as the sole stumbling block to the mystical scientific theoretical cure you would seek.
Based on your own responce to my post, I am obviously much more capable of making this decision than are you.Using your own rather shallow reasoning,medical experimentation on the poor, or prisonors, is justifiable.How much furthor evolved scientificably we would be if the human costs were never weighed!
Will you also deny me feeding tubes if I have a stroke? After all, it would be so much easier and more cost effective if I just died by starvation, rather than drain my insurance company's funds, on the off chance that given therapy, I may yet recover.
BTW, I am not a member of an organised religion. I am apparantly much more concerned with humanity as a viable concept than you appear to be, so most emphatically YES, I am able and willing to make this decision, even though I do not have an advanced degree in biology or chemistry.
Common sense is all that is needed here.
It's done all the time.
ANOTHER judge. Nice of you to pass sentence for the rest of us. Too bad you, like others here, lack the authority OR the basic right to do so.
I watched my uncle die. I wouldn't wish that on an enemy; in fact, on my enemies I only wish a quick death, that I might not share this Earth with them too long. The fact that YOU would wish it on ANYONE is telling.
"Wrong. Every embryo is human. What else could they be? Spinach? Sponges?"
Already covered previously. Not everyone agrees with you, and you cannot force them to. And the comparison is foolish, even if it makes a good bumper sticker.
"These embryos are dead babies -- nothing more, nothing less. They should be given Christian burial, not hacked to bits to provide spare parts for other people."
Excellent EMOTIONAL response. Now, how about a reasoned, logical one? BTW, how do you know they are Christian?
Human leather: give us lampshades, spare us the sermon.
If so, then it seems that everyone is mad because my tax dollars aren't paying for such research, and the corporations wan't to leach off the public dole as usual, instead of spending some bucks themselves.
No public money for abortions. No public money for using the dead babies' body parts.
I asked R.J. Cogburn about the usual higher mammalian studies. R.J. cited research where HUMAN cells are implanted in mice, and there are also studies where HUMAN cells are implanted in swine. Those are not the non-human higher mammalian studies because they involve using human cells. The usual scientific regimen would involve studies in non-human higher mammalian species, before jumping to the human trials. That is not what these 'scientists' are seeking to do and seeking to have uninformed American citizens embrace ... because the potential for wealth and fame is supposed to be enormous if human embryos can be exploited in their pluripotent stage to grow organ cells.
So, what is the individual embryo conceived in an in vitro clinic? Well, the woman seeking to become pregnant isn't trying to birth a pig or mouse or ape, she's fully expecting that the 'thing' she will provide life support to is an individual human life, else she would be visiting a zoo, I would suppose, for her fertilization. Jump over that if you choose, but it establishes that the life of the embryos in the nitro tanks is individual human life. You appear ready to assign worthiness to that individual human life based on utility, since you want us to focus on the embryos that are destined to never be given further life support in a human body. The very same line of faulty reasoning may and is applied to the in utero individual human life --'it isn't going to be allowed to reach natural birth so it is fair game for exploitation for body parts'.
It might help for you to honestly tell everyone just when you think the individual life that IS implanted in a woman's body actually becomes a life worthy of support and protection. Oh, and when is that 'nascent' life to be considered a human being. That would give those interested in discussing this with you a fix on the individual continuum of life as you perceive it. [BTW, don't hold back, I and many others here are well qualified to understand any scientific quotes you wish to choose in your description, and I'll even translate such verbage into laymen's language if you wish. HINT: our next step in this discussion, after you give us a clear picture of your decided time frame for humanity and protection, is to then debate the merits of your chosen scientific position, but you might take into consideration that scientists will be cited, experts in their fields of genetics, obstetrics, and gynecology, researchers in stem cell utilization and exploitation. We use facts here at FR when we wish to be precise.]
I quit reading at this point. Just WHO is using hyperbole?
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
ANOTHER judge. Nice of you to pass sentence for the rest of us. Too bad you, like others here, lack the authority OR the basic right to do so.
It's not me that judges such people. "Thou shalt not murder" is the decree of God, not of man. The idea of murdering a child in order to gain personal benefit was the basic tenet of the worshippers of Moloch, not the followers of the true God. If people wish to bargain with Moloch in return for longer life, that is their affair, but they should be prepared: when the bill comes due, the Almighty will collect every penny owed
. I watched my uncle die. I wouldn't wish that on an enemy;
I'm sorry about your uncle, but so what? I watched my saintly grandmother die a long, lingering death, too. Not once did she ever hint that we should go hack up an innocent baby to prevent that death. Suffering is not the worst thing a man can experience.
in fact, on my enemies I only wish a quick death, that I might not share this Earth with them too long. The fact that YOU would wish it on ANYONE is telling.
I don't wish death on anybody. But the FACT is that ALL OF US are going to die sooner or later, and if the price for a few months or years of extra life is the blood of innocent children then that price is too high.
"Wrong. Every embryo is human. What else could they be? Spinach? Sponges?"
Already covered previously.
Sez you.
Not everyone agrees with you, and you cannot force them to.
First: I don't care if anybody agrees with me or not. Matters of right and wrong are not subject to the popular will. Second: I cannot force people to do anything -- but the State can; indeed, that is the reason God institutes governments among men. And in time either the State will fulfil its duty to protect human life, or God will allow it to fall.
Believe it: Abortion will be illegal again someday, and with it the barbaric practice of growing children to order for the purpose of using their corpses for spare parts. And at that time the idea that all children are human will be forced upon people, at gunpoint if necessary.
And the comparison is foolish, even if it makes a good bumper sticker.
Thank you for sharing that unsupported opinion.
"These embryos are dead babies -- nothing more, nothing less. They should be given Christian burial, not hacked to bits to provide spare parts for other people."
Excellent EMOTIONAL response.
Thank you. Are you trying to imply that an emotional response is somehow inferior to a so-called "rational" response in every circumstance?
Now, how about a reasoned, logical one?
Very well:
1. The deliberate killing of an innocent human being is murder.
2. A baby is an innocent human being.
3. Therefore, the deliberate killing of a baby is murder. QED
BTW, how do you know they are Christian?
I don't. They cannot be, since they are unbaptized. However, Christ can through his infinite Grace save the souls of those human beings who have yet to commit sin, including those of aborted children. Since God is infinitely Just, we may rest assured that every human being will receive the eternal destiny they deserve; for our part, we may give the dead children the benefit of the doubt and allow them Christian burial.
As one who has the blood of aborted children on my own hands, I urge you to reconsider your beliefs on this issue -- for your own sake, if not theirs.
As the title says,"Spare me the sermon." You do not even know my religion.
". And at that time the idea that all children are human will be forced upon people, at gunpoint if necessary. "
That a fellow conservative could write this phrase with a straight face chills me to the bone.
"I'm sorry about your uncle, but so what? "
This speaks for itself. We have nothing further to discuss on this matter.
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