Replies

> "If I recall correctly the "virgin birth" is mentioned in some of the four gospels, but not all four. The "virgin birth" is actually an old pagan idea that was adopted by the Christians to fulfill prophecy."

The prophecy was around long before the miracle. Christians didn't write history after Christ, they referred to history as evidence of His nature. Nice try.

> "The curious thing about Jesus' life is that he wrote not a thing. You would think if his mission was really that important he would have written down his message and instructed people to make copies."

As Jesus hangs on the cross, dying for the sins of man, He is heard to say, "Can someone please bring me a pen?"

> "The central tenet of Christianity is the resurrection..."

Exactly! See your previous sentence.

> "Also, there is some issue as to whether or not Jesus was really dead when he was removed from the cross. Most men languished for 2 or 3 days when crucified. He expired in 6 hours. Did Pontius Pilate make a deal with the Christians? He would "crucify" Jesus to satisfy the Jews, but bring him down before death on the agreement (perhaps) that Jesus would leave town forever."

And the spear in his side was just to make it look good?

1) Jesus was beaten severely before his crucifixion and did expire rapidly... so what? I've studied Roman history. Some could linger for more than a day... not most. Those who lingered were helped to linger to not let them off early. Crucifixion is horrible enough in action but death is primarily due to slow asphyxiation. Given his loss of blood due to the flagellation and fatique from the other beatings, I have no problem with the timing of His demise.

2) Regardless of how long He had hung on the cross, He would have had a hard time visiting with His old buds without a long recuperation... three days just wouldn't do it and the Gospels are pretty clear that He did appear to His apostles and visit with them beginning immediately after the resurrection.

He hung on the cross until God decided it was time for him to die. Period.l

> "If I recall correctly the "virgin birth" is mentioned in some of the four gospels, but not all four. The "virgin birth" is actually an old pagan idea that was adopted by the Christians to fulfill prophecy."

The prophecy was around long before the miracle. Christians didn't write history after Christ, they referred to history as evidence of His nature. Nice try.

*(since this was already answered I thought I'd pile on...)The controversy (if you want to call it that, really "apostosy" is a more accurate term) dates to the 19th Century theologically liberal scholars who out of their bias to disbelief, rejected ANYTHING supernatural in the bible. The word in the Old Testament for "virgin" can be translated alternately as "young woman" however, you have to ask why a prophet would predict such a "REMARKABLE" event as a young woman giving birth (since young women give birth all the time)... Also, these scholars ignore a basic biblical premis to let the Bible interpret itself, whenever possible. The 2 gospels that give an account of Jesus childhood do indeed mention and elaborate on the virgin birth (Matt. 1:1-25; Luke 1:26-38)--with specific quotation of the Isaiah 7:14 passage in Matthew, therefore the Bible tells us the interpretation of Isaiah is definitely not merely a young woman. Clearly it wasn't an invention taken from the pagan indea of virgin birth, rather its in the eye-witness testimony. Various pagan premonitions to truth can be shown...which doesn't show or come anywhere near proving Christians took their history from legend.

> "The curious thing about Jesus' life is that he wrote not a thing. You would think if his mission was really that important he would have written down his message and instructed people to make copies."

As Jesus hangs on the cross, dying for the sins of man, He is heard to say, "Can someone please bring me a pen?"

*Some great leaders in history have time to write...others do not. There are various godly heros in the Old Testament whose life was written ABOUT not autobiographical. Such a statement is arguing from silence, and seems to assume you know better how God should have worked it out...

> "The central tenet of Christianity is the resurrection..."

Exactly! See your previous sentence.

*Again, the original reason of doubting the virgin birth, was a bias against ALL miracles. If you accept the miracle of the ressurection, why is it so hard to accept the universe's Creator made a virgin conceive? (ahh, but we see below, you don't accept the miracle of resurection)

> "Also, there is some issue as to whether or not Jesus was really dead when he was removed from the cross. Most men languished for 2 or 3 days when crucified. He expired in 6 hours. Did Pontius Pilate make a deal with the Christians? He would "crucify" Jesus to satisfy the Jews, but bring him down before death on the agreement (perhaps) that Jesus would leave town forever."

And the spear in his side was just to make it look good?

*Again, this is that bias against the supernatural showing... you are engaged in mere speculation, in the face of eye-witness testimony. The spear indeed proves Jesus died.

1) Jesus was beaten severely before his crucifixion and did expire rapidly... so what? I've studied Roman history. Some could linger for more than a day... not most. Those who lingered were helped to linger to not let them off early. Crucifixion is horrible enough in action but death is primarily due to slow asphyxiation. Given his loss of blood due to the flagellation and fatique from the other beatings, I have no problem with the timing of His demise.

*"beaten" hardly begins to describe the indescribable trama of Roman scourging. 2 men with long cat-o-9 tails whips...which had bits of bone and iron embedded all along their tines would have literally torn most of the skin completely from Jesus back...with severe damage to the muscle tissue beneath as well. The skill of scourgers was measured in how close they could bring their victims to death without pushing them over...surely Jesus scourgers were very skilled. Then nail him to a tree and punch a spear in his side...and yet, he revived??? Wow, you really do believe the unbelievable. Jesus died. Christians have always known and proclaimed that fact.

2) Regardless of how long He had hung on the cross, He would have had a hard time visiting with His old buds without a long recuperation... three days just wouldn't do it and the Gospels are pretty clear that He did appear to His apostles and visit with them beginning immediately after the resurrection.

*My biggest beef with the theologically liberal, especially the clergy is the whole lack of integrity involved. Not the lack of integrity not believing...but in continuing to enjoy the respect, the titles, and often the paycheck that are really given to leaders under the understanding that they are honest. Show me someone who doesn't believe the virgin birth, and I'll show you someone who deserves not the respect of the title of "Christian" let alone "Reverend." Its simply dishonest in the extreme to be a preacher...who teaches the gospel stories...repeats weekly the ancient creeds (like Anglicans all do) which CLEARLY STATE one believes in the virgin birth, and the physical death and resurrection of Jesus, and stay in your position, pretending---lying really. The atheists down at the bar drinking their troubles away, have more integrity than that.

"Who was born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot was crucified dead and buried....and on the third day He arose again from the dead..." (from the Apostles Creed)