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Christmas Before Christ? The Surprising Story
United Church of God ^ | 12/200 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 12/21/2002 11:21:49 AM PST by DouglasKC

Christmas Before Christ?
The Surprising Story


Most people know the Bible doesn't mention - much less sanctify - Christmas. Does it make any difference as long as it's intended to honor God and bring families together?

by Jerold Aust

S


everal months ago the popular American comedic actor Drew Carey was interviewed on an equally popular television talk show, The View. Mr. Carey surprised the audience when he addressed the value of telling children the truth about Santa Claus.

"I don't think you should tell kids that there is a Santa Claus," he said. "That's the first lie you tell your children." Instead, "tell kids that Santa's a character we made up to celebrate a time of the season." Otherwise "when kids get to be 5 ... they realize their parents have been lying to them their whole life."

Earlier in the year the Arts & Entertainment cable television channel aired a program about Christmas titled Christmas Unwrapped: The History of Christmas. The promo for this program read:

"People all over the world celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th. But why is the Savior's nativity marked by gift- giving, and was He really born on that day? And just where did the Christmas tree come from?

"Take an enchanting journey through the history of the world's favorite holiday to learn the origins of some of the Western world's most enduring traditions. Trace the emergence of Christmas from pagan festivals like the Roman Saturnalia, which celebrated the winter solstice."

These two programs addressed the fact that Santa Claus is fictitious and that Christmas and its trappings emanate from pagan Roman festivals. By no means are these the only sources of information about the background of Santa Claus and Christmas.

Is there more to these ancient traditions and practices than meets the eye? And, more important, does it make any difference whether we continue them?

Celebration of the sun god

It may sound odd that any religious celebration with Christ's name attached to it could predate Christianity. Yet the holiday we know as Christmas long predates Jesus Christ. Elements of the celebration can be traced to ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome. This fact doesn't cast aspersions on Jesus; it does, however, call into question the understanding and wisdom of those who, over the millennia, have insisted on perpetuating an ancient pagan festival that has devolved through much of the world as Christmas.

Members of the early Church would have been astonished to think that the customs and practices we associate with Christmas would be incorporated into a celebration of Christ's birth. Not until several centuries had passed would Christ's name be attached to this popular Roman holiday.

As Alexander Hislop explains in his book The Two Babylons: "It is admitted by the most learned and candid writers of all parties that the day of our Lord's birth cannot be determined, and that within the Christian Church no such festival as Christmas was ever heard of till the third century, and that not till the fourth century was far advanced did it gain much observance" (1959, pp. 92-93).

As for how Dec. 25 became the date for Christmas day, virtually any book on the history of Christmas will explain that this day was celebrated in the Roman Empire as the birthday of the sun god. Explaining how Dec. 25 came to be selected as the supposed birthday of Jesus, the book 4000 Years of Christmas says: "For that day was sacred, not only to the pagan Romans but to a religion from Persia which, in those days, was one of Christianity's strongest rivals. This Persian religion was Mithraism, whose followers worshiped the sun, and celebrated its return to strength on that day" (Earl and Alice Count, 1997, p. 37).

Not only was Dec. 25 honored as the birthday of the sun, but a festival had long been observed among the heathen to celebrate the growing amount of daylight after the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year. The precursor of Christmas was in fact an idolatrous midwinter festival characterized by excess and debauchery that predated Christianity by many centuries.

Pre-Christian practices incorporated

This ancient festival went by different names in various cultures. In Rome it was called the Saturnalia, in honor of Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture. The observance was adopted by early Roman church leaders and given the name of Christ ("Christ mass," or Christmas) to conciliate the heathen and swell the number of the nominal adherents of Christianity.

The tendency on the part of third-century Catholic leadership was to meet paganism halfway-a practice made clear in a bitter lament by the Carthaginian philosopher Tertullian.

In 230 he wrote of the inconsistency of professing Christians. He contrasted their lax and political practices with the strict fidelity of the pagans to their own beliefs: "By us who are strangers to Sabbaths, and new moons, and festivals [the biblical festivals spelled out in Leviticus 23], once acceptable to God, the Saturnalia, the feasts of January, the Brumalia, and Matronalia, are now frequented; gifts are carried to and fro, new year's day presents are made with din, and sports and banquets are celebrated with uproar; oh, how much more faithful are the heathen to their religion, who take special care to adopt no solemnity from the Christians" (Hislop, p. 93).

Failing to make much headway in converting the pagans, the religious leaders of the Roman church began compromising by dressing the heathen customs in Christian-looking garb. But, rather than converting them to the church's beliefs, the church became largely converted to non-Christian customs in its own religious practices.

Although at first the early Catholic Church censured this celebration, "the festival was far too strongly entrenched in popular favor to be abolished, and the Church finally granted the necessary recognition, believing that if Christmas could not be suppressed, it should be preserved in honor of the Christian God. Once given a Christian basis the festival became fully established in Europe with many of its pagan elements undisturbed" (Man, Myth & Magic: The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mythology, Religion, and the Unknown, Richard Cavendish, editor, 1983, Vol. 2, p. 480, "Christmas").

Celebration wins out over Scripture

Some resisted such spiritually poisonous compromises. "Upright men strove to stem the tide, but in spite of all their efforts, the apostasy went on, till the Church, with the exception of a small remnant, was submerged under Pagan superstition. That Christmas was originally a Pagan festival is beyond all doubt. The time of the year, and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin" (Hislop, p. 93).

The aforementioned Tertullian, for one, disassociated himself from the Roman church in an attempt to draw closer to the teachings of the Bible.

He wasn't alone in his disagreement with such trends. "As late as 245 Origen, in his eighth homily on Leviticus, repudiates as sinful the very idea of keeping the birthday of Christ as if he were a king Pharaoh" (The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 6, p. 293, "Christmas").

Christmas was not made a Roman holiday until 534 (ibid.). It took 300 years for the new name and symbols of Christmas to replace the old names and meaning of the midwinter festival, a pagan celebration that reaches back so many centuries.

No biblical support for Santa Claus

How did Santa Claus enter the picture? Why is this mythical figure so closely aligned with the Christmas holiday? Here, too, many books are available to shed light on the origins of this popular character.

"Santa Claus" is an American corruption of the Dutch form "San Nicolaas," a figure brought to America by the early Dutch colonists (The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 19, p. 649, "Nicholas, St."). This name, in turn, stems from St. Nicholas, bishop of the city of Myra in southern Asia Minor, a Catholic saint honored by the Greeks and the Latins on Dec. 6.

He was bishop of Myra in the time of the Roman emperor Diocletian, was persecuted, tortured for the Catholic faith and kept in prison until the more tolerant reign of Constantine (ibid.). Various stories claim a link from Christmas to St. Nicholas, all of them having to do with gift-giving on the eve of St. Nicholas, subsequently transferred to Christmas Day (ibid.).

How, we might ask, did a bishop from the sunny Mediterranean coast of Turkey come to be associated with a red-suited man who lives at the north pole and rides in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer?

Knowing what we have already learned about the ancient pre-Christian origins of Christmas, we shouldn't be surprised to learn that Santa Claus, too, is nothing but a figure recycled from ancient pagan beliefs.

The trappings associated with Santa Claus-his fur-trimmed wardrobe, sleigh and reindeer-reveal his origin from the cold climates of the far North. Some sources trace him to the ancient Northern European gods Woden and Thor, from which the days of the week Wednesday (Woden's day) and Thursday (Thor's day) get their designations (Earl and Alice Count, pp. 56-64). Others trace him even farther back in time to the Roman god Saturn and the Greek god Silenus (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, pp. 70-71).

Was Jesus born in December?

Most Bible scholars who have written on the subject of Jesus' birth conclude that, based on evidence in the Bible itself, there is no possible way Christ could have been born anywhere near Dec. 25.

Again we turn to Alexander Hislop: "There is not a word in the Scriptures about the precise day of [Jesus'] birth, or the time of the year when He was born. What is recorded there, implies that at what time soever His birth took place, it could not have been on the 25th of December. At the time that the angel announced His birth to the shepherds of Bethlehem, they were feeding their flocks by night in the open fields ... The climate of Palestine ... from December to February, is very piercing, and it was not the custom for the shepherds of Judea to watch their flocks in the open fields later than about the end of October" (Hislop, p. 91, emphasis in original).

He goes on to explain that the autumn rains beginning in September or October in Judea would mean that the events surrounding Christ's birth recorded in the Scriptures could not have taken place later than mid-October, so Jesus' birth likely took place earlier in the fall (Hislop, p. 92).

Further evidence supporting Jesus' birth in the autumn is that the Romans were intelligent enough not to set the time for taxation and travel in the dead of winter, but during more-favorable conditions. Since Joseph's lineage was from Bethlehem, and since he had to travel from Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem, and since his expectant wife Mary traveled with him, it would have been nearly impossible for Joseph and Mary to make the trip in the winter. As recorded by Luke, Mary delivered Jesus in Bethlehem during the time of census and taxation-which no rational official would have scheduled for December.

What difference does it make?

The Bible gives us no reason-and certainly no instruction-to support the myths and fables of Christmas and Santa Claus. They are tied to the ways of this world and contrary to the ways of Christ and His holy truth. "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles," God tells us (Jeremiah 10:2).

Professing Christians should examine the background of the Christmas holiday symbols and stop telling their children that Santa Claus and his elves, reindeer and Christmas gift-giving are connected with Jesus Christ. Emphatically they are not! God hates lying. "These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Proverbs 6:16-19).

Recommended Reading

Does it matter to God which days and customs we celebrate to honor Him? Why do so many of our holidays have strange customs sanctioned nowhere in the Bible?

Many people are shocked to discover the origins of most popular holidays. They're also surprised to find that the feast days God commands in the Bible-the same days kept by Jesus Christ and the apostles-are almost universally ignored.

Be sure to request your free copies of the booklets Holidays or Holy Days: Does It Matter Which Days We Keep? and God's Holy Day Plan: The Promise of Hope for All Mankind.

Christ reveals that Satan the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44). Parents should tell their children the truth about God and this world's contrary and confusing ways. If we don't, we only perpetuate the notion that it is acceptable for parents to lie to their children.

Can a professing Christian promote a pagan holiday and its symbols as something that God or Christ has approved? Let's see what God thinks about people using customs and practices rooted in false religion to worship Him and His Son. We find His views clearly expressed in both the Old and New Testament.

God specifically commands His people not to do what early church leaders did when they incorporated idolatrous practices and relabeled them Christian. Before they entered the Promised Land, God gave the Israelites a stern warning: "Take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them [the inhabitants of the land],... and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

"You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods ... Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:30-32, emphasis added throughout).

Many centuries later the apostle Paul traveled to and raised up churches in many gentile cities. To the members of the Church of God in Corinth, a city steeped in idolatry, Paul wrote: "... What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God ... Therefore 'Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.' ... Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"
(2 Corinthians 6:14-17; 7:1).

Instead of allowing members to rename and celebrate customs associated with false gods, Paul's instructions were clear: They were to have nothing to do with them. He similarly told Athenians who were steeped in idolatry, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

God alone has the right to decide the special days on which we should worship Him. Jesus Christ plainly tells us that "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). We cannot honor God in truth with false practices adopted from the worship of nonexistent gods.

Jesus said: "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:6-7). With God no substitutes are acceptable. It makes no difference that Christians mean well when they observe Christmas. God is not amused or pleased.

The knowledge of how to honor Almighty God, who made us, preserves us and gives us eternal life, has been made available to you. Will you honor God or follow the traditions of mankind?



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: axegrinders; christ; christmas; kooks; scroogewasright
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To: DallasMike
You also have a huge internal flaw of logic and a serious clash with Paul's writings but I'm too tired of pointing out the obvious.

Too tired from shopping for idolatrous vanities at the mall?

141 posted on 12/22/2002 7:11:48 PM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: DouglasKC
This may come as a surprise to you but most Christians are aware of the pagan festivals pre-dating Cristmas and Easter.

During the early years of Christianity, Christmas and Easter were important pagan festivals with all the associated debauchery. If you were a Christian during this time, what could you do? For centuries, while their neighbors were out at drunken orgies, Christians could either stay at home or get together with other Christians for fellowship. Remember, scripture does stress the value and importance of Christian fellowship!

Since their fellowship was not due to biblically mandated worship, early Christians were free to develop their own traditions under the guidance of scripture. Over time, Cristianity grew and with it the seasonal counter-pagan traditions we now know as Christmas and Easter.

Think for a moment back to a time circa 250 AD. You are a Christian in a predominantly pagan community. Everything has shut down for Saturnalia festivities. If you sit quietly at home, you may have to listen to and even see a drunken orgy next door. Remember, pagans were feeding Christians to lions back then. Sitting at home alone with drunken revelers roaming about might not have been the safest thing for an early Christian to do. The safer thing would have been to get together with other Christians. Once together, what could they do to pass the time? Certainly, when getting together, they would have to bring food. Bringing gifts would have been the next step. To drown out the sound of a nearby orgy, singing songs of praise and worship may have been necessary.

At some point, someone must have said, "While the pagans are having festivals for their gods, why don't we spend this time celebrating our Lord and Savior!

Over the centuries, Christianity and it's traditions grew eventually winning out and replacing the pagan festivals. Christians continue celebrating their great victory over high pagan festivals in what we now know as Christmas and Easter.

Certainly there are residual trappings of various pre-Christian seasonal practices embedded within modern Christmas such as the missletoe, Christmas tree, etc. Sure you should obey scripture and "Learn not the way of pagans" however, do you wear a necktie? Ever wonder about the origins of the necktie? Members of the ancient cult of Dionysis wore arguably the earliest necktie in the form of a phallus. Think of that next time you are dressed up at church and the ministers wife compliments your tie. Ever give or receive a toast? Read up on the Roman god Bacchus for more info on toastings origins.

If you are going to legalistically adhere to scripture and "Learn not the way of the pagans", why pick and choose? Of course if you choose not to wear a necktie to church this weekend, your pastor may take offense thinking you are now a eunich or suffering some other sexual malady:-)

Please tell me where I'm all wrong.

142 posted on 12/22/2002 7:58:45 PM PST by fso301
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To: Conservative til I die
Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

No, just one who can read the Bible and understand that truth contradicts church traditions in many, many cases. It is, or should be common knowledge that Dec. 25 has NOTHING to do with anything Christian, but is the observance of Saturnalia, and that nearly all of the trappings of xmas are pagan. The OT believers were warned against most of these symbols and practices.

One should not mistake NT grace for the license to practice paganism.

Would putting a new name on Halloween change the fact that it is a pagan observance with very dark spiritual connotations?

143 posted on 12/22/2002 8:46:43 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Conservative til I die
I don't appreciate you morally pontificating about what others do on Christmas.

I am sure you don't. Those in love with tradition find it hard to replace it with Truth.

Yeesh, who the hell are you anyway, trying to speak for God.

I am an ambassador for Christ. I am sent into the world with a message. Most of the time I am sent with a message to those who profess a Christian faith. Frequently so-called believers do not listen, preferring their own ways. I am doing no more and no less than any Christian believer should do.

144 posted on 12/22/2002 8:53:30 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Hila
Thank you DouglasKC!!!!! Nine years ago we were shown this truth and decided to honor the One whose book we endeavor to walk by. I must add that knowing how we had gotten hooked on this tradition, made it more easy to make a decision to be free from it. Yes, it matters to the Savior that we accept the revelations He gives us along our walk with Him, and it sure matters what we decide to do with that knowledge.

Thank God not me... :-)

This is the second year I'm not celebrating and the first year for my wife and kids. My wife says it's the most stress free and trouble free holiday season we've ever had...freedom in Christ indeed!

145 posted on 12/22/2002 9:14:26 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: ALS
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Looks like christmas trees are a NON-issue. Just thought I'd post the REST of verse 5, which you left off.

146 posted on 12/22/2002 9:20:03 PM PST by ET(end tyranny)
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To: 2sheep
It is interesting to see how so-called loving Christian people treat me when they discover that I do not celebrate xmas. If I were Jew or Hindu, they would show a veneer of respect, but when they also discover that I am Christian, I get to see hatred that should be reserved for an enemy, not a brother in Christ.

I NEVER try to dissuade others from celebrating xmas, nor do I bring up the topic. But if and when the topic comes up, I explain my position on the issues and let it go at that unless someone gets nasty about it.

Can I have fun and enjoy this time of year? Certainly. But I can do it without a tree and Santa Claus as I have done for over 20 years.

147 posted on 12/23/2002 7:00:56 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: ET(end tyranny)
"Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

So God says heathens do it, don't you, and you want to take escapist's license with that verse?

Read the entire chapter. The whole point of that statement is that the Israelites feared the pagan gods, and believed evil would befall them if they didn't commit pagan practices, and good would befall them if they did.

I hope my reply wasn't too long for you.
148 posted on 12/23/2002 2:24:58 PM PST by ALS
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To: Eagle Eye
My last was 1984, and I've been treated the same way. People can't stand the possibility you might be right and them wrong. They stick their face in yours just like queers at a scout rally.
It appears to be an IQ problem. They lack one.
149 posted on 12/23/2002 2:29:24 PM PST by ALS
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To: Eagle Eye; DouglasKC; ALS; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal
>>It is interesting to see how so-called loving Christian people treat me when they discover that I do not celebrate xmas. If I were Jew or Hindu, they would show a veneer of respect, but when they also discover that I am Christian, I get to see hatred that should be reserved for an enemy, not a brother in Christ.

Agreed.  We are of the same mind.  All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, and often the persecutors are religious hypocrites.  It looks like you are dealing with those who are not brothers in Christ.  When told that His mother and brethren were come to see Him, Jesus said, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" He pointed to the crowd and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren!  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.  Those who do not do the will of God are not brothers.  If God were their father, they would love you.

There are as many demonic spirits (deceiving, seducing, "religious" spirits) in and around Christian churches as there are in whorehouses, porn houses and drug houses.  Deception has been one of the best tools of the devil and "religious spirits" want to maintain their hold over the people they have deceived.  One can fish from a boat and look down and see many "fish" to bring in, but when one has "sharks" snapping at the boat, you know you are in demon-infested waters.

Today most of mainstream Christian has fallen away, having believed another Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel.  G~d's way is a highway of holiness, not a party for the licentious and self-willed.  Above we see that Sir Francis Dashwood, an acknowledged atheist, has more light on the subject of Christmas than the so called Church. Lu 16:8 ... for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

We're not posting as much as before because it is fruitless to argue with those who will not endure sound doctrine.  The command through Paul is "from such turn away."  2 Tim 3:5.  When the Word is posted and it is an offense to those who say they are Christians and they deny or twist what it says, then it is time to dust off one's feet, move on and talk to those who are genuinely interested in the Word.  Truly the Word is still a twoedged sword which divides sheep from goats.

Paul said:  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.  Tit 3:9-11

Jesus came to "his own" and his own received him not.  Jesus said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin," and the religious people of the day said, "We be the children of Abraham," just like people today say, "We are Christians."   They relied then just as they do now on their "church membership" as if they were hit with a holiness-wand and didn't have to continuing hearing and obeying the Lord.  Those who continue are His and those who do not are not His.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

150 posted on 12/23/2002 2:45:32 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: DallasMike; A.J.Armitage; DouglasKC; ALS; Eagle Eye
DallasMike wrote: >Then why does the message you and 2sheep preach sound so different from the message that Jesus preached in the New Testament? Have you ever read Galatians, for example? It's a direct rebuttal of you two.

A.J.Armitage wrote: >Go read Paul. And I mean read Paul, not flip through looking for condemnations of unrighteousness to tack on at the end of a declaration that something is unrighteous, to fool the simple into thinking you have Biblical justification for calling it unrighteous. Read Paul, read Hebrews. Let it tell you what to believe.

Here are some thoughts from Paul in Romans and Galatians.  You would do better to war against the spirits blinding you than us.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh*, but after the Spirit[There IS condemation for those who walk in the flesh*]

***Galations*** 5:19 Now the works of the flesh* are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

151 posted on 12/23/2002 2:57:06 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: DouglasKC
Bump for later perusal
152 posted on 12/23/2002 3:00:09 PM PST by Aric2000
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To: 2sheep
Whoa. Uh, Merry Christmas to you as well...
153 posted on 12/23/2002 3:16:30 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: fso301
You're wrong because you failed to explain where "christian traditions" came from.
Neither Christ nor His apostles or the 1st church participated in these pagan practices, so it doesn't take a slide rule to figure out from whence they came.
The fact that you used the word "tradition" shows that these rituals were either made up or just continuations of previous heathen rituals.
I'm not talking down to you. I can see you are sincere in your statements, and so am I.

A fine example is His "birthday". An event which is purposely left to debate regarding precision of date. Although we can know approx. when, and it wasn't in December, there are only 2 instances in the entire bible which talk about a birthday celebration. The first, which is difficult to decipher is in the Book of Job. His kids were celebrating one when they were all taken by death. The other is mentioned below in the book of Matthew:

14:6
But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
14:7
Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.
14:8
And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.
14:9
And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
14:10
And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
14:11
And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother.

If His birthday was such an important event, why did neither He nor any of his followers observe it?
The answer is because it was a pagan practice to celebrate yourself.
The bible makes it clear throughout to not do as the heathens do.
154 posted on 12/23/2002 3:27:19 PM PST by ALS
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To: Eagle Eye
Actually, if my birthday were to be celebrated randomly, it would be a grand thing for it to be celebrated upon the same day my great enemy's victory was celebrated: for in doing so it shown that he is crushed and fallen, and I am over him. Such it is with Christmas: it falls almost upon the winter solstice, during which the pagans trembled for fear of the darkness. Some offered sacrifices to restore the day, or celevrated supposed deities that would restore the light, though only for a while, but none held any real hope or certainty. All changed with the coming of the Lord: the Light of men. He trampled the darkness and the "gods" of this world and their despair and mockery of good things. Though, I suppose, it is illogical to place His birth in December, I think it is best that way, for it shows His great victory. It accents the coming of Light into a dark world. Recall the pagan days if you will, and consider the much more brilliant greatness of the Daystar whom we celebrate, set starkly against the gloom of the pagan. If you feel tempted to worship these old gods (and why one would I do not know), then do not celebrate Christmas. But I, for myself, have no thought of going back to the darkness, so I shall keep Christmas, and celebrate the coming of Light into our winter gloom.
155 posted on 12/23/2002 3:27:58 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: 2sheep
I see you've abused Paul's writing in precisely that way I warned against.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh*, but after the Spirit.  [There IS condemation for those who walk in the flesh*]

The entire issue is whether having a tree, giving Christmas presents, ect are works of the flesh.

***Galations*** 5:19 Now the works of the flesh* are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, &c

It is, to put it charitably, not demonstrated that Christmas is idolatrous.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But if you're wrong (and you are), that verse is about you.

If you took Scripture at all seriously, you would derive your doctrine from it, instead of presuming that your strange views are true doctrine and then trotting out condemnations of false doctrine as if they proved your point, when you have yet to Scripturally demonstrate your doctrines to be true. Your extended quotations serve no purpose except deceiving the simple; true reverence would make any such misuse unthinkable.

156 posted on 12/23/2002 3:31:29 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: DouglasKC
As Alexander Hislop explains in his book The Two Babylons

Anyone who quotes Alexander Hislop as an authority instantly qualifies for both my "unbelievably stupid" and "toxic religious bigot" lists.

Hislop's book is one of the worst pieces of garbage ever stuck between two covers, on par with Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Don't believe me? A Baptist fellow named Ralph Woodrow once wrote a book glorifying Hislop's silliness ... then he wised up and wrote a second book pointing out just how thoroughly misled he had been. His second book is called The Babylon Connection. I suggest you read it.

157 posted on 12/23/2002 3:39:35 PM PST by Campion
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To: ALS
Neither Christ nor His apostles or the 1st church participated in these pagan practices

I'm always amused at the certainty with which people declaim about the practices of the early Christian church.

Were you there? Do you have a time machine? Or are you simply basing what you say on your reading of Scripture?

Brilliant scholars have studied the available evidence for years, and still dispute about some aspects of early Christian belief and practice, and yet every ardent sectarian with a Bible thinks that he or she is a Divinely-annointed authority on the topic.

158 posted on 12/23/2002 3:48:49 PM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
Were you there? Be careful how you use the word "brilliant". I seem to recall the same being said of Lucifer.

I'm always amused by no matter how many facts you lay on the table, some yahoo comes swimming along, happy as pie to let others think for them. The insidious part is how said yahoo pretends to don the armor of the imagined intellect whose skirt they hide behind.

Get off your lazy ass and do the research yourself then come back and attempt an adult conversation.
159 posted on 12/23/2002 3:56:19 PM PST by ALS
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To: Campion; Eagle Eye; ALS
>Brilliant scholars have studied the available evidence for years, and still dispute about some aspects of early Christian belief and practice, and yet every ardent sectarian with a Bible thinks that he or she is a Divinely-annointed authority on the topic.

Brilliant scholars of what spirit?  It is Idolatry to bow to Nicolaitan overlords, false shepherds who lord it over the flock.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 Re 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans*, which I also hate.

 Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans*, which thing I hate.

 What is a Nicolaitan?

Jesus said, Come unto *ME* and seek His face, not church TRADITIONS.

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

160 posted on 12/23/2002 4:08:01 PM PST by 2sheep
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