Christmas Before Christ? The Surprising Story

United Church of God ^ | 12/200 | Jerold Aust

[DouglasKC]

Merry Christmas!

Thank you. That day will certainly be a merry one as are most of my days. :-)

[2sheep]

>....brought an INSTANT MESSAGE to me. From God? I do not know. But I'm going to pass it on just in case.

You would know if you read your Bible.  If Jesus Christ showed up in America today, Christians would crucify him afresh.  My comments in [brackets]

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  [Those are NOT sheep.  He said so]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [They hear, obey and are given understanding by the Lord]
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This is basic:

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If you don't depart from iniquity, you aren't His.

Am 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing  [Shema: understanding] the words of the LORD:

The famine is worldwide.  Plenty of religious voices talking, but few hearing the L~rd.  Shema is the Hebrew for "hearing" in Amos 8:11.  Unfortunately, the English word for "hear" means "to perceive sound."  Big difference!

Hearing = shema in Hebrew: hear/obey/understand.

When people skip "obey" either intentionally or because they are deceived, they are unfaithful and are not given understanding.  That is why the wicked do not understand.  Many doctrines and traditions of men have reinforced the error.

Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Faithful Jews hear God which means "to hear/obey/understand."  Shema!
Apostate Christians interpret the same word hear to mean "to receive sound."

Therein lies the problem.  Faith without action is dead.   Jas 2:26.
Jesus said those who say and do not are hypocrites.   Mt. 23.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[LiteKeeper]

The point being that Christmas is the primary season (not even a day) that has replaced God's Holy days.

Since I am a rigid advocate for sola scriptura, where is your scriptural justification for this statement?

[justshe]

2sheep......my statement to you stands.

Proverbs 16-18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Your comment that "You would know if you read your Bible" is an assumption gargantuan in its' fallacy.

[DouglasKC]

The point being that Christmas is the primary season (not even a day) that has replaced God's Holy days.
Since I am a rigid advocate for sola scriptura, where is your scriptural justification for this statement?

God's holy days are enumerated in Exodus 34, although it's interesting that Genesis 1:14 translates a word as "seasons" that is later used to mean the feasts of the Lord.

These days were kept by Jesus (John 7:10 and various other scriptures) and the disciples and were never done away with by God or anyone else in the bible.

[2sheep]

You are deceived.  If you were on receive mode instead of only output mode like Jezebel, one might be able to explain to you how your own demons are reflected back to you as you accuse [Satanas] others through your religious cellophane.  Seek deliverance!  You do not HEAR.

[LiteKeeper]

Again, since you failed to answer my question, I will ask it agains. Where is the celebration of Christ's birth included, in Scripture, as a holy day...or as you eluded to it, as a day that replaces the other days?

Heading for bed, will read in the morning.

[fella]

"God's holy days are enumerated in Exodus 34, although it's interesting that Genesis 1:14 translates a word as "seasons" that is later used to mean the feasts of the Lord.

These days were kept by Jesus (John 7:10 and various other scriptures) and the disciples and were never done away with by God or anyone else in the bible.

Amen, to that.

"There are none so blind as those who refuse to see nor none so deaf as those who refuse to hear".

[DouglasKC]

Again, since you failed to answer my question, I will ask it agains. Where is the celebration of Christ's birth included, in Scripture, as a holy day...or as you eluded to it, as a day that replaces the other days?

I don't understand. It's not included and that's my point. I'm saying that that Christmas and other "holy days" celebrated by traditional christianity have replaced the days given in the bible by God in our society. Christmas is non-scriptural. God's holy days are still in force, not the manmade ones like Christmas.

Are we on the same side of this issue and don't realize it? :-)

[Eva]

Every year in Latin class we made Yo Saturnalia cards.

[mdmathis6]

Paul talked about the sabbath and other days(in the same passage he talks about foods ect) in relation to faith,"some esteem one day, others esteem another over all other days".."but let each be convinced in his own mind". You see he was getting at the notion that we are people of faith, and some have weaker faith and some have stronger faith, but we were to live not under law but of grace. If some Christians feel that they are tempted to worship pagan Gods or feel they are inadvertantly honoring some false deity by celebrating Christmas, then they must stop doing so, for Paul stated that they violate their own conscience when they do so, and this becomes sin to them, not being able to celebrate it by faith.(We are to be people of faith, and live by faith).

Others may be pursuaded that, by faith they are honoring God in remebering his gift to all mankind...hey if the angels can sing and celebrate in the heavens regarding his birth...why can't I? Would the angels have been unknowingly celibrating some pagan ritual by celebrating his birth(assuming it was DEC. 25)? The wisemen(I beleive there were more than three) brought him gifts. Perhaps if we got rid of some of the Santa clause commercial glitz and moved the date to a more plausibe time of the year, our more anal brothers would be more accepting of the holiday.

I propose that the holiday be moved to the 4th of July... this would serve a practical purpose since we could combine the celebration of the founding of our Country with the celebration of the founding of Christianity. I feel this would result in considerable tax savings as the Federal Government could then reduce one Federal holiday from the Register and add one day in which the post office and other federal offices would be operating. Additionally the Federal legislature would stay in session right up until Dec.31, to allow the taxpayer to get a little more performance from the high salaried political Jack-asses we continue to elect.(On second thought, I don't wish to insult the PETA people by impugning the dignity of real Jack-asses, especially if Mary had ridden one on the way to Bethlehem) This would be a boon to the economy as well as people could combine their Christmas vacations and their summer vacations and save businesses billions as people would have no practical reason to take a winter vacation.
July 4 also splits the difference between early spring and early autumn since shepherds watched their flocks by night between those two times of the year,...who knows July 4 1776(Novus ordo seclorum, new world order) and July 4, 6 BC(Novus ordo spiritus, new spiritual order), kinda profound and catchy, huh?

Then the only criticism our Christmas hating associates could offer of the new date is criticism of parents telling their kids that UNCLE SAM, in his red, white,and blue uniform is the one bringing them their new toys!

[A.J.Armitage]

If you were on receive mode instead of only output mode like the Pharisees, one might be able to explain to you how your own demons are reflected back to you as you accuse [Satanas] others through your religious cellophane.

[2sheep]

>If you were on receive mode instead of only output mode like the Pharisees, one might be able to explain to you how your own demons are reflected back to you as you accuse [Satanas] others through your religious cellophane.

You have the shoe on the wrong hoof.  We are talking against hypocrisy and you are for hypocrisy.  Re-read Matthew 23.  Perhaps even print it out and frame it.  The Pharisees were the hypocrites who say and do not.

Mt 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Lu 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

ALS posted the following in #30 above.  It appears to have been a prophecy.  Almost everyone else has come along to fulfill the prophecy and let none of his words fall to the ground:

To: DouglasKC

Thanks for posting the truth. Now watch the hypocrites crawl out from the woodwork in anger.

age old story....

30 posted on 12/21/2002 4:07 PM PST by ALS

---

Mr 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

If a woman dated a man for a long period of time and he told her he loved her and talked of marriage and a lifelong relationship, and then a brother she trusted advised her that the man she had been dating was married and obviously had lied to her, what would she do?

• Realize she had been deceived and terminate the relationship or wilfully be an accomplice in adultery?

• Decide she could not have been deceived, continue in the relationship with the married man and demand proof of his marriage from the brother -- a wedding certificate or photos of the wedding -- and accuse the brother of lying about her lover?

What does she love most?  Truth or her current relationship?  What is at stake?  Her pride, her future and her very life.  What does she do when confronted with Truth:  deny it and live a lie or accept it and repent?

---

If a fireman comes to your house and tells you that you have to get out because your house is on fire, what do you do?

• Realize someone came to warn you and you have to depart from the house to save your life?

• Decide you can't smell smoke and would rather not leave the house so yell at the fireman and call him hateful and say he wants you to die?

[Fury]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I wanted to be sure you were not stating that G_d was punishing people who shopped in that store, as for anyone to claim that would be misappropriating His Divine Power and Glory for their own reasons and *there is* penalty for that.

[DallasMike]

Read C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien.

My first encounter with 2sheep was over C.S. Lewis. 2sheep believes that Lewis was not a Christian writer, but rather a sun worshipper!

I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. Tell him, 2sheep -- give us a link to the websites you showed me.

[DallasMike]

Fury....there doesn't seem to be too much room for interpretation of #27. And not too Christian of him either.

He said that the earthquakes on Halloween in central Italy were God's punishment. We had some bad storms in central Texas last spring (surprise -- happens every year!). 2sheep claimed those were a punishment on George W. Bush because the Crawford ranch is in central Texas.

I have to feel sorry for 2sheep and wish he would get some help. He lives a life devoid of the joy which God wants to give him.

[DallasMike]

We are talking against hypocrisy and you are for hypocrisy.

Sorry, but you're talking about something so totally perverted that it's not really recognizable as Christianity.

Please, go and get some help. I'm serious.

[DouglasKC]

Sorry, but you're talking about something so totally perverted that it's not really recognizable as Christianity.

You are correct. It's usually not recognizable as traditional Christianity. But it's very recognizable as biblical Christianity. When you begin to see the difference between "traditional" and "biblical" then it will make sense.

[DallasMike]

When you begin to see the difference between "traditional" and "biblical" then it will make sense.

Then why does the message you and 2sheep preach sound so different from the message that Jesus preached in the New Testament? Have you ever read Galatians, for example? It's a direct rebuttal of you two.

[DouglasKC]

Then why does the message you and 2sheep preach sound so different from the message that Jesus preached in the New Testament? Have you ever read Galatians, for example? It's a direct rebuttal of you two.

Exactly what in Galatians do you see as a rebuttal?