Alien Ideas: Christianity and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life

CRISIS magazine via CERC ^ | BENJAMIN D. WIKER

[Quix]

Hadn't thought about it putting an odd twist on things.

But I suspect routine cloning virgin births would cheapen the notion of the IMACULATE CONTRAPTION--ERR CONCEPTION. Cloning would be the socalled imaculate contraption.

Alas, given today's excuse for morals, there probably would STILL be no such thing as a truly VIRGIN birth. Almost any modern canal, sadly even among what 50-75% of the "Christians" has been well exercised--too often by more than one exerciser.

But it could also point to the idea that if man can do imaculate contraptions so "easily," God should have had an easy time with the IMACULATE CONCEPTION. It COULD encourage faith.

[Quix]

I still don't know what to make of hell.

Some have taken the route that EVENTUALLY ALL will be reconciled to God.

Jesus went into Hell during the 3 days in the grave and "took captives captive" --delivered--evidently--all who wanted out.

C.S. Lewis' GREAT DIVORCE is telling. Most didn't want to leave. Perhaps hyperbole.

But I really have met people who would refuse to go to Heaven because it wasn't constructed on THEIR specifications. God is not about to allow such to pollute His Heaven.

Even if hell is "only" a place apart from conscious awareness of God--that would be hell enough.

Then there's that interesting Scripture about not fearing man who can only kill the body but fear God who can kill the soul.

Clearly God is using hell to say--hey--group--there are REAL CHOICES. There has to be REAL CHOICE or else there CANNOT be real LOVE. If being unloving yields the same array of consequences as being loving--then there is no choice. Without the choice to choose NON-love, we are all robots. God is without the desired Loving dialogue with Loving intelligent creatures made in His image.

I don't know what hell is or will be.

But I believe Him in what He says about it. Besides that, my OOB experience in the throne room of hell was QUITE HELLISH. I don't wish to go back in any form at any time for any reason.

At least it's a vivid illustration of the consequences of choosing to reject God and His provision for an eternal relationship with Him; ruling and reigning with Christ. I prefer to take the illustration seriously and to my part of accepting Christ's Blood covering; forgiveness and Eternal Life.

To do otherwise seems to be eternally suicidal without hope of any eternal EMT's in the life copters etc.

It also seems to me to be terminally stupid.

So, I can stand on some pedastal for some microseconds or whatever and piss against the wind at THE BOSS's construction of and use of hell.

Stupid. Stupid.

[Quix]

I do think it's a key point that Hell was made for the devil and his angels. I can find the Scripture ref or anyone can look it up at BibleGateway.

It APPEARS TO ME that God has bent over backwards as far as He can to be true to both His LOVE and His JUSTICE--and to protect Free Will and His PERFECT HEAVEN--OR THAT IS, HIS PERFECT-all-else-but-hell.

. . . . while rearing up, training those to rule and reign with Christ through an experience of a robust type and amount of true FREE-WILL.

Seems rather sensible, actually, if He wants to avoid a repeat of satanic rebellion in the Heavenlies.

Only the truly Loving; the truly sacrificially servant-hearted make the grade. Sounds like a high quality, top-flight way to go. Sounds like God.

BTW, I do appreciate your being part of all this. I like it that you have tons of energy. Passion is a lot better than apathy. Lumps on the floor are hard to encourage in ANY direction.

[yendu bwam]

Earth being a 'temporary' in infinite time terms boot camp to rear up a large number of intelligent creatures made in God's image to rule and reign with Christ through endless ages in an economy based on Love, humility, servant-heartedness in submission to God's ways . . . going about the infinite universes setting to right all that became polluted and less than perfect. Sounds fun to me. The Lord of The Rings could end up being a shallow soap opera BY COMPARISON.

Indeed, Quix! It does seem that God's intent is to raise up intelligent beings in His image - and to give them the possibility of approaching Him in great goodness through their own free will and choice - then to live with Him through the ages doing His work. As a Christian, I belive this. I don't know if I will make it. I don't know if it will be fun. But I am sure it will be glorious. And yes, all things of this world, though sometimes reflective of that to come (like music, as an example - and yes, like the Lord of the Rings) - will be mere shadows of that which is to be. Christians can feel and taste the glory of that which is to come, and hope for it with all their hearts.

[Quix]

Ahhhhhh yes, but

WHICH

Greys????

[yendu bwam]

And FAR, FAR, FAR TOO OFTEN, it seems to me, Christians WHO OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER . . . seem least prepared for what the supposedly honeslty expect.

Ah, Quix. Christ told us that the servants should always be prepared for the day the master comes home. How easy it is for each of us to lose sight of that. If we truly love God, though, we want to be as perfect as we can be, regardless of when His son might return to us. And through such love, we hope to be ready and await such with great expectation...

[yendu bwam]

it just seems to me that He would have had more fun creating a diversity of universes based on/structured with VERY DIVERSE rules/laws/structures.

Twould be a surprise to me if our universe were the total of His creation!

[yendu bwam]

From my layman's perspective, there appears to be, for initial stages, a surprising amount of surprisingly quality evidence . . . if one looks carefully and resourcefully enough.

There are certainly some suggestive hints...

[Quix]

Hmmmmm

Sorry . . . not my intent to tone etc. things as a lecture.

I'm no longer a lecturer, actually. They gave me assoc. professor status long ago.

But I'd just as soon not "associate professor" you either.

ACTUALLY, I'M JUST RESPONDING as I feel and think about the stimuli you offer. I'm probably as passionate as you are. But I'm NOT trying to take brickbats or 4 X 4's to you. I rather enjoy you.

I also am not responding to you alone. I'm responding as though your questions or comments were handed to me anonymously in class. What you get is something of the variety, passion etc. that my classes always got.

I'm not sure what to do about it. It's VERY DIFFICULT for me to write dispassionately. It's hard enough work to be more civil and polite. God is not finished with me yet, obviously.

BTW, there's a program on Discovery now examining experimentally where the hand nails would have been placed and their ability to hold the body. The historical record indicates the wrist as the shroud shows.

Anyway--where was I . . . If something I write is particularly an offensive example of lecturing you, please feel free to point it out in the thread or freepmail and I'LL DO WHAT I CAN to adjust things accordingly.

I'm strident about the ideas, the issues, the truths. I have no need to beat you over the head with even a wet noodle.

Blessings,

[yendu bwam]

. . . while rearing up, training those to rule and reign with Christ through an experience of a robust type and amount of true FREE-WILL.

One cannot be truly and wholly good until one has experienced the sting and horror of evil - and found the strength to resist it and to endure the suffering that it causes - in all its manifold guises. Not only does God show us the way - He sent His son to provide the example. We are only our own fools if we do not try with all our heart, souls and minds to follow that example.

[yendu bwam]

Clearly God is using hell to say--hey--group--there are REAL CHOICES. There has to be REAL CHOICE or else there CANNOT be real LOVE.

God yearns for us to come close to Him. If we reject His love, and fail ourselves to love, then we choose hell.

[yendu bwam]

Alas, given today's excuse for morals, there probably would STILL be no such thing as a truly VIRGIN birth.

Using modern techology, it will become possible (though it is an abomination) to clone any, including virgins. But Mary's conception occurred with God as father - with God seemingly providing the other half of the chromosomes needed to create a human. That's far different from cloning!

[yendu bwam]

I don't see that anyone on the whole of FR has sufficient Godliness to be haughty.

I'm not sure that anyone on the whole of FR has sufficient Godliness to be humble!

[yendu bwam]

It is one of the facts of life that all our faiths are nothing more than faith.

Well, actually, some faiths are partly grounded on a great deal of indirect evidence - not proof, but evidence nonetheless.

[yendu bwam]

God has a big investment and priority in providing sufficient evidence without forcing belief. Sight removes faith.

Well said, Quix.

[yendu bwam]

I think of hell and eternal punishment for something done here on earth for perhaps 70-80yrs, as incredibly cruel, unjustified, and unnecessary.

Hey stuartcr, if you have in your 70-80 years here (a gift from God) decided up to the last minute to rebel decisively against Him, to ignore his love, and His hopes that you will become a loving being yourself - and if you have made the decision to bring horrendous evil into this world (and thus to follow the way of Satan) - then you have made your choice. What difference if you made that choice in 70-80 years, with an infinite number of chances to repent, or in 700-800 years? My guess would be that people of this nature (like Stalin, as an example, unless he truly repented), are far from God now. God gives you a lot of chance to join the good side. Don't be a fool and tell Him that your 70-80 years isn't good enough for you.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We're talking about something completely different here.

Simile: A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as -- i.e. you are like some who says he doesn't need to read geography books because he doesn't plan on leaving town.

Your questions are sophomoric.

[yendu bwam]

Unlike you, I presuppose nothing about God.

Except, as you say in your next post, that He is all-powerful and all-knowing. From where do your presuppositions come?

[Quix]

I belive this. I don't know if I will make it. I don't know if it will be fun.

We can only do what we can do. But HE IS ABLE. HE is the author and finisher of our faith. HE is the one who has declared neither death nor life nor things seen nor things unseen; nor demons etc. can seperate us from the Love of God. HE FINISHES WHAT HE STARTS--EVEN IN US. NOTHING CAN PLUCK US OUT OF HIS HAND.

Yeah, when I've blown it for the nth time 12 ways to Sunday and am feeling like the lowest microbe on the lowest slug in the lowest cesspool of hell, it can be hard to feel convinced of those truths. But we live by HIS WORD, not by our feelings. PRAISE GOD FOR THAT.

-------------

AS TO FUN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to Godspell long ago ready to be insensed at the blasphemy of it all.

Holy Spirit within me took me to the woodshed over my attitude and perspective. IT WAS WONDERFUL.

GOD IS FUN. I CAN'T IMAGINE ETERNITY BEING ANYTHING BUT INFINITELY *MORE* FUN.

I'm still in the hopefully last 20% or less of the last long dark night of the soul. And mine are dooooooosies. Nevertheless, even in the midst of it, I could detect God's sense of humor.

We may as well laugh--we ain't getting out of it alive unless we get raptured or translated.

And when Scripture says that the suffering of this life is NOT WORTHY TO BE COMPARED with the glories of the next . . .

and that our suffering is that WE might bear a GREATER WEIGHT of glory in Eternity.

I believe HIM.

The devil's a thief, a murderer and a destroyer. I believe God.

HE has rescued me from myself and from hell and death. He has persistently built me up in spite of my own abilities to tear myself down.

I'M DEPENDING ON HIM TO FINISH WHAT HE'S STARTED IN ME. You can, too.

He means what He says. He does what He says.

Blessings to you and yours this season.

LUB,

[crystalk]

One hundred dusty commentaries which say to stick to the conventional translations, will have no effect upon me.

The Hebrew (and Greek) simply are not adequately covered by those translations, but those who find them comforting are welcome to them.

You need not quote further conventional theology texts, I am well aware they do not contain modern technological translations of these terms.