Alien Ideas: Christianity and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life

CRISIS magazine via CERC ^ | BENJAMIN D. WIKER

[exmarine]

I will answer your question, but first I have one for you:

Don't you find it contradcitory that the naturalists and darwinsists that believe in SETI (which looks for patterns and in so doing assumes that ordered patterns are indication of "intelligence") also look at the highly ordered and extremely complex protein molecule, and assume it just formed by chance rather than being created by an intelligence? Order is either an indication of intelligence or it isn't - which is it?

[Pahuanui]

Maybe you would like to give me REAL evidence for panspermia - what a leap!

Why would I? I don't necessarily believe it occurred.

The most obvious and logical conclusion is that the microbes are from earth! Why would any scientific person think otherwise without one single shred of evidence? hmmm?

I have no idea. I am person involved in science, and I don't have enough data to make any iron clad assertion, one way or the other.

Could it be that they start with a BELIEF that God doesn't exist? Yep. All beliefs flow from one's belief about God.

Another assumption on your part.

Give me your evidence...and please spare me your non-scientific speculations based on presupppositional assumptions.

Your problem is quite a simple one, really. You are assuming that those who do not necessarily agree with your idea and/or explanation of certain phenomena or theories must therefore subscribe to another, in this case, microbes originating in outer space. You are quite wrong in making this assumption.

I want only the facts and real evidence. If you can't provide it, then maybe you should examine your own beliefs and how you came to hold them.

Oh, I'm well aware of what I believe and how I came to this point, but what I believe is not the question here, it's what beliefs you are foolishly trying to ascribe to me.

First you start with the BELIEF that there is no God, then you try to make everything fit that belief.

Not I, Chicken Little, not I.

[exmarine]

Hate to burst your bubble, but the bible says nothing about life on other planets. It is silent.

However, the odds (mathematical probability) if life existing elsewhere are so astronomical as to be impossible even with the billions of galaxies. Check out www.reasons.org and learn more. There are many factors that must be in place very precisely in order for life to exist. Here are some examples: Thickness of the earth's crust - any thinner or thicker, life would be impossible; ozone layer - any thicker or thinner, life would be impossible; distance of earth from sun; size and intensity of sun; presencea and location of Jupiter which keeps solar system stable; location of sun in between two spiral arms in milky way galaxy - if sun were on a spiral arm, life would be impossible; strong nuclear force; weak nuclear force; magnetic field, tilt of earth's axis which causes 4 seasons and allows life, size, distance of our moon - without it there would be no tides and no life; type of planet earth is - we have found no others like it or resembling it - all planets found so far are gas giants like jupiter; and there are many more such factors. All of these factors must be precise in order for life to exist. The odds of another planet having ALL of these factors is beyond the realm of possibility.

[exmarine]

Oh, I'm well aware of what I believe and how I came to this point, but what I believe is not the question here, it's what beliefs you are foolishly trying to ascribe to me.

Then tell me what your beliefs are. It is obvious from your answers and tone that you do not believe that God created life. If I am wrong, then please tell me what your beliefs are so that I can be more specific, or admit I was wrong. When I deal with atheists and agnostics, I like to question their beliefs - they hate that becuase they rarely have a good defense for agnosticism or atheism.

[exmarine]

Please answer this question:

Don't you find it contradcitory that the naturalists and darwinsists that believe in SETI (which looks for patterns and in so doing assumes that ordered patterns are indication of "intelligence") also look at the highly ordered and extremely complex protein molecule, and assume it just formed by chance rather than being created by an intelligence? Order is either an indication of intelligence or it isn't - which is it?

[Pahuanui]

Then tell me what your beliefs are.

That is not the issue here.

It is obvious from your answers and tone that you do not believe that God created life.

Again, quite incorrect, and quite an unwarranted assumption on your part. I might just as well assert "It's clear from your answers that you have five arms, and two are purple".

If I am wrong, then please tell me what your beliefs are so that I can be more specific, or admit I was wrong.

Again, my beliefs are neither here nor there in this matter. You were, and still are, making assumptions about the beliefs of others, and I have seen you numerous times on this site attempt to divert attention from statements you have made, and got called on, by specifically asking what someone else's beliefs are, when what they are or are not is utterly besides the point.

When I deal with atheists and agnostics, I like to question their beliefs - they hate that becuase they rarely have a good defense for agnosticism or atheism.

I see zero evidence of you ever having done this at this website. Perhaps you could supply specific examples of the occassions when you deem yourself as having accomplished that.

[RightWhale]

An annoying possibility that is becoming almost a sure bet is that the biomass of microbial life inside the rock of earth is greater than the total biomass on the surface and in the sea and air.

If this is so, then every rocky planet could easily have such microbial life, and it wouldn't require any conditions at all on the surface, or even the presence of a sun.

If the question is higher lifeforms with consciousness and a brainstem to house it, then the conditions appear rare. If the question is life in any form, then the galaxy and the universe could easily be filled with it.

[exmarine]

hahaha. If I am chicken little, you must be chicken big. Since you are afraid to tell me what you believe, and only wish to challenge what I believe, you deserve only to be ignored. What's the matter - afraid your beliefs can't stand up in the light? You spoke to me first - if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

And by the way, I have argued with many many atheists on free republic and the truth usually wins when you know how to argue it. I have never seen you before either - so what?

[Physicist]

Don't you find it contradcitory that the naturalists and darwinsists that believe in SETI (which looks for patterns and in so doing assumes that ordered patterns are indication of "intelligence")

Woah, there. Do you know what radio astronomers search for when they look for alien signals? All they look for is a narrowband radio source at a fixed point in the sky. That's it. That's all there is to SETI. How again is this relevant to the search for a manufacturer's tag on the universe?

[exmarine]

If this is so, then every rocky planet could easily have such microbial life, and it wouldn't require any conditions at all on the surface, or even the presence of a sun.

Underlying this statement is an unsupported assumption that life just spontaneously generates and this has never been shown in any scientific study. Besides, that is mere speculation - how do you know that there are rocky planets outside our solar system, and how do you know that they would contain microbes under the crust? This is all pie in the sky stuff you are talking about.

[exmarine]

A narrow band radio source? - and how do they differentiate this source from random space noise?

[Physicist]

Random space noise is broadband.

[exmarine]

If the question is higher lifeforms with consciousness and a brainstem to house it, then the conditions appear rare. If the question is life in any form, then the galaxy and the universe could easily be filled with it.

There is no such thing as a simple life form pal. Even microbes have DNA. And it is highly highly complex and contains precisely ordered information. Question: In darwinian theory, how is information added to the genome?

[A.J.Armitage]

Aint nothing "Wishful" about it...Just FACTUAL.

Putting it in all-caps won't make it any more persuasive.

And it's not me saying it...It's a Fundemental Christian...He said that his religion believes that the bible is absolutely, literally true...God created the Earth with life on it and no other life.

The Bible is absolutely, literally true.

Guess what? It doesn't say anything about life on other worlds.

That faint sound you heard was cards falling to the table.

[exmarine]

I see, so narrow band space noise is considered to possibly come from intelligent life? If not from intelligent life, then from where? Look, even the name SETI indicates the search for INTELLIGENCE - signals from intelligence are certainly more ordered than broad band space noise. haha. If the life is intelligent, obviously it will respond in an ordered intelligent fashion, or the whole exercise is a waste of time. Obviously, noise from intelligence is more ordered than random noise from space, otherwise they could not differentiate and it would be a waste of time. You are trying to spin this issue so that you won't have to answer the contradiction.

[Pahuanui]

hahaha. If I am chicken little, you must be chicken big.

What a quaint notion.

Since you are afraid to tell me what you believe, and only wish to challenge what I believe, you deserve only to be ignored.

You seem to have a deep-seated penchant for being wrong. I was referring to the posts from around 205-208. You attempt to attribute to the other poster positions for which there was no evidence that he/she held. Now you are attempting to change the subject. Unfortunate, but typical.

What's the matter - afraid your beliefs can't stand up in the light? You spoke to me first - if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

I spoke to you in regards to the kindergarden level of your rhetoric, hence the unimportance of my beliefs in regards to microbes coming or not coming from space.

And by the way, I have argued with many many atheists on free republic and the truth usually wins when you know how to argue it.

Indeed. I have seen you humbled more often than I can recall.

I have never seen you before either - so what?

The point being that I have seen you attempt your obfuscation here over the years, fail repeatedly both in content and when called out on it, and yet still come back for more.

As my grandfather used to say, "Even a gorilla learns from experience."

It seems you prove an exception to the rule.

[PatrickHenry]

Placemarker, pal.

[Physicist]

Order has nothing to do with it. In fact, the amount of information (order) you can pack into a communication channel goes down as the band gets narrower; why do you think internet communication companies tout their broadband service? What do you think that word means?

The reason people use narrowband radio signals to communicate with each other is because it makes it easier to distinguish from natural radio sources (which happen to be broadband, and which do contain quite a bit of information, actually), so less power is needed. Since aliens will be subject to the same laws of physics as we, it stands to reason that they will use the same technique.

[exmarine]

Tell you what - let's stick to arguing the specifics of the topic - you obviously like ad hominem. People on this thread have indicated that they agree with me. What say you about them? hmm? Would you like to insult some other people? Why don't you state something with beef in it (other than insults) that I can challenge and we will see what happens. You aren't willing to state your beliefs - because you are a coward. If you aren't willing to do that, then take a hike. Tit for tat with you is a waste of my time and demonstrates (on your part) a lack of substance (indeed, a lack of argument period).

[exmarine]

That does not eliminate your problem. If "INTELLIGENT" life exists, it is capable of ordered communication, otherewise, it would not be intelligent. Whether that communication be from broad or narrow bands makes no difference. Intelligence implies order. Period.