Posted on 12/13/2002 9:31:46 AM PST by Destro
Yes, you're wrong in your understanding of my post. I really don't see how I could make it any clearer than I did the first time, so you might try a re-read:
"No reading of Christian texts can amount to a Divine mandate for violence in the service of the Gospel."
I would not dispute with you that many have attempted to serve the Gospel through violence; I only make the case that the foundational text doesn't support it. Unlike the case with Islam.
How would we know? We're too busy ducking and it's not because of Christians, Hindus, Jews, or Buddhists.
I'm not disallowing the OT... there are plenty of places where God instructs individuals or the Israelite nation at large to kill and kill some more. Joshua had some killing to do; I don't.
No, it is completely answerable and totally relevant. The real issue is, what do the religious texts of the respective faiths teach? Therein you will find the "real Islam" and the "real Judaism" and the "real Christianity." The actions of adherents are what could be deemed irrelevant. Either professing Muslims, Christians or Jews follow the teachings of their faiths, or they do not. The texts should dictate their actions, not the other way around.
Oh, come on, VT, you've got to be fair... atheism is just getting started. We should give it a chance to catch up before we evaluate. =]
Religions do not change. People may change the way they perceive or understand their own devotion to a religion but the principles and laws of any particular religion cannot change.
Why does that conflict with what you understand? It seems quite clear what I wrote: religions do not change but the way people view/distort/ change/alter/interpret religions does. Then they start new "offshoots" as you put it. But let me repeat the main point here and that is:
Islam is not a religion!
Stupid. As are all the anti-Christian bigots littering this thread with their knee-jerk reactions.
Islam has passages directing its followers to do just what they are doing: Kill the infidel indiscriminately.
Anyone who likens Judeo-Christian scripture to that is simply dishonest. The only time Jews were directed to violence it was a direct and specific command of God against a specific target. However much Jews might have hated Gentiles, they never killed them indiscriminately.
When you get to Christianity, you find the Christian scripures are the polar opposite of the Koran where violence is concerned.
As to the behavior of self-proclaimed followers, that is all over the map. Just because David Duke calls himself a republican does not make every republican a racist.
You've got the lid up but are still missing the toilet. If religion is man made, is was created to institute social order (not chaos). Like the baseball bat or an automobile it can be used to great detriment for causes other than those intended by it's creators.
...and what makes it "irrelevant" is the fact that the textbooks of same, primarily the koran, are very clear, i.e., did you know that there are 123 verses in the koran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:
- Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.
- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96). Maybe this means 72 virgins - BWAHAHAHAHA!!
- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).
- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).
- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)
- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).
- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).
- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).
- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).
- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
-Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).
- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)
- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)
- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55
In other words, the only thing "relevant" here is that islam is out to destroy all that is non-islamic. Additionally, don't give me any crap about taking anything "out of context", because these things are mere lists of rules, and each rule stands on its own!
Stay vigilent, stay armed, and never trust a Muslim!
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