Posted on 12/12/2002 4:11:02 PM PST by vooch
a complicated and contradictory full blown conspircy theory must be developed to indict the Yugoslav government (aka "Milosevic") for war crimes 1991-99
on the other hand
President Clinton stated in a official report to Congress that Kfor had operational command over the KLA/KPC. Therefore, Kfor officers and other Political leaders are most assuredly guilty of KLA/KPC war crimes according to USFM 27-10 Chapt 6 para 366. Since UNMIK/Kfor took over, their subordinates (ie the KLA) have murdered at least 1,000 civilians.
No elaborate conspircy plot is needed to condem the HumWarriors. It is all there in black and white.
Amazing you do not consider the F117 a casualty, nor the 2 other F117s brought down outside of Serbia proper nor the Apache's in Albania which were targeted and hit by Serbs, nor the 3 Cav Scouts who were captured, nor the 2 or 3 German Tornadoes brought down over Fruska Gora in the early part of the war (witnessed by my friends cousin while he was talking to him). Dont know what to say.......except you are wrong, simple.
You see,Albi,Wesley Clark was a Serbian spy!So ,one day he called Serbian Gen. Pavkovich on his mobile :"Hello Pavke,old friend!How ya doin`?Listen,I need more violence,man,more bodies!I am tired of blowing to pieces empty buildings and hospitals...I need some dead bodies,any bodies .I am sending tommarow some Hornets to Djakovica ,can you provide some tanks or APCs for target practice?No?How come?Oh,I see,I`ve destroyed them all!All 15 000 of them!?Never mind.Do you have anything else in the area?A refugee conwoy?Lot`s of tractors you say?Good!Can you squeeze some combine harvester in the conwoy,it looks like SAM-6 from 150 000 feet where my brave pilots fly!No...what a shame.Listen,why don`t you send a couple of Mig 21s too?Don`t worry,I`ll tell my AWACS boys to turn the blind eye and my SEGA warriors not to engage them,OK?But,Pavke,just in case that we miss,why don`t you open up with your mortars at the conwoy,for the good measure?What...what about your soldiers in the conwoy?What about them?We kill every day somebody with "friendly fire",so f*****g what!?Brits,Americans,Canadians...but we can`t catch those stinking French,they always run away when we bomb.Don`t worry,shoot couple of yours,give them a medal and that`s it!"
The rest is history...Serbian Migs were flying a suiccidal mission under the beady eyes of AWACS and 100+ NATO planes in order to bomb an extremely strategic military target(a refugee conwoy)a few feet of their own troops!And,just in case,because Americans didn`t kill enough of people they had fired volley after volley of mortar rounds on the conwoy...without killing even one Serbian soldier.You know why,Albi,because Serbs are the most advanced army in the world:15 years ago they had invented ETHNIC NERVE GASS that kills only Albanian children when thrown in the school yard...and makes Serbian children to giggle(side efect).In 1998 Serbs had perfected AAMR(Anti Albanian Mortar Round).It has a special IR sensor that locks on the white traditional cap worn by Albanian men(Ceche)you should be familiar with it,nesce pa,mon cher?So,a Serbian soldier can stand safely next to an Albanian civilian and the mortar will hit a Shiptar gentlaman straith in the brain!Piece of cake!
Another proof of Wesley`s duplicity is when a few days later USAF hit a Yugoslav border post Kosare abbandoned by VJ and full of your beloved KLA waruiors and killed 40+ of them.Allegedly,they (NATO) didn`t know that KLA was sleaping in captured barracs(!).But,unfortunatelly,Wesley`s cover was blown and he was prematurely,retired.
Albi,you can "lean" wherever you want(don`t fall)but,Djakovica incident was a big NATO blunder,and they had addmited it.But,not in the mass media but in the specialist magazines and media,both military and aviation.In Air Forces Monthly last year,a big editorial "Serbian Galant Knights" was published.British authors,this time,have given a true story of Yu Airforce during the Allied Farce,with description of almost every sortie flown by the Yugoslavs.The true story is very different from the articles they had published in `99.And,they explicitly confirmed that there was no Migs for a long time arround Djakovica,that Yugoslavs had nothing to do with the bombing,ect,ect...
We are ,I believe,all tired of this issue,and officialtruth which is discredited long time ago.If you haven`t noticed,FR has moved forvard from "false paraffin tests" and "Djakovica (Serbian) bombing".So,if you don`t want to sound stupid,lean more towars truth...if not,I think that FR is not a site for your posts.
Why don`t you try posting in "Koha Ditore" "Bota eSot" or "Rilindia",may be you`ll find a gratefull readers!
Here,it`s a tiresome reading.
If it were not sad, your ignorance is the only thing that's laughable in this tragedy. Obviously, three years ago you were too young to follow the news, or have any conherent recollection of events.
NATO was losing time and supplies. Time was running out, and a decision had to be made to either go in and take causalities, or risk a set-back, as the winter was approaching.
After 78 days of daily, country-wide bombings, some 500 Yugoslav soldiers were killed and twice as many civilians -- six soldiers a day. Tens of thousands of sories were flown, most above ordinary anti-aircraft guns' reach; the US arsenal of (not-so)"smart" bombs was depleated; even the US carpet bombing of presumed Yugoslav positions at the end of the conflict -- judged tohave 'decimated' Serb units -- resulted in decimating arable land and forests only.
As Serb troops withdrew from Prishtina, some eleven untouched MiG 29s took off from the airport (US intel was saying none were left), and the British commander of NATO troops described the withdrawing Serb army to be in "inspection-ready condition." They withdrew with battle flags, in perfect order, disciplined, clean shaven, defiant -- hardly a defeated army. They took with them some 300 clean, oiled and battle-ready tanks. Almost 50,000 battle-ready soliders grudginly left.
In all, 16 operational Serb tanks were destroyed, and those could have been hit by ground fire from KLA as well as being lucky shots from the air. Serb decoy tactics and warfare tactics were grudgingly admitted to later on, as having been very efective, and that NATO was about to walk into a trap believing the Serb units were "decimated."
What broke Miloshevich was not battlefield losses which existed only in the overblown careerists' minds in various analysts'dens, but sheer terrorism. When NATO committed to war crimes, by bombing electrical grids, and clearly targetting civilian population's welfare, with a typical catch-all excuse that for NATO EVERYTHING was a potential military target, it was no longer a war but one0sided unopposed terror! I hope those repsonsable for it will one day regret having done that.
Targetting civilian population was not only a violation of the Geneva Convention and its Additional Porotocols, but it clearly represented terror tactics -- openly admitting that driving the civilian population to desperation the aim, in hope that it would topple the Mioloshevich regime.
Miloshevich had no choice but to gave in to such terror. NATO had no stomach to face its enemy, but had no problmes dropping cluster bombs on civilians in Nish with not military target in cite. No country could sustain such unopposed barbarism to which the US and UK bear the greatest responsability. Serbia did not capitulate to NATO; Serbia agreed to a negotiated ceasefire and implementation of UNSCR 1244, holding steady its demands and not even giving one inch from the original Ramboulliet agreement.
But as to their (lack of) success (unless success is equated to terrorism), NATO was clueless. Like you are. In either case, it's pathetic.
wrong
'Milosevic' didn't give in
It was the HumWarriors who abandoned every one of their key war aims and the Yugoslav Government who successfully achieved every one of their stated aims when they began their defense.
Otherwise your post is spot on.
One should recall that Yugoslav Army's motto during the bombing was When it Snows, We win
The Yugoslav Army has set a series of traps for when a land based invasion would come (presumably sometime in Sept at earliest).
One typcial trap was partially revealed when B-52's were tricked into carpet bombing a otherwise empty mountainside in the last week of the war. The Yugos had set up electronic decoys which fooled J-Stars & the Controllers into believing a full Yugo brigade was 'hidden' on the hillside. In Brussels, they whoopped and hollared with joy when they heard the reports of the successful B-52 strike.
But of course, NATO teams who came afterwards to inspect the area concluded that there wasn't a single VJ soldier there when the carpet bombing began. Brussels was utterly fooled by the decoys.
The Yugoslavs intended to use such decoys to trick Clinton's bombers into bombing their own ground forces. We are surely fortunate that Clinton's armchair strategists who advocated aground war were silenced by mature Pentagon leaders....
For in a ground war, those Yugoslav decoys might have been succesful in luring our very own B-52's into a tragic accident.
Gorazde- The Muslims were in the action-phase to unleash poison into the water treatment tower for Eastern Bosna (now Republika Srpska upon VRS victory ((partial and in-waiting victory)). The VRS decided to enter the town and theefore destroy the water tower themselves, then pull back. You will not hear about that in the Press. Muslims attempting to poison the water, Serbs save the water.
But, Kocta, isnt that the reason NATO gave in bombing the Serbs "bombing electrical grids, and clearly targetting civilian population's welfare?
I am sorry to say,I haven`t mastered,yet,creation of the links,otherwise,I would lead you to it.
I am not talking about hacking into a Pentagon computers,I am talking about looking for the information at an appropriate place!
You need medical information:look into a British Medical Journal,not in Daily Mail,The Sun or Times...
Try FAO(Federation of American Scientists)web site and follow the links provided.Maybe you`ll learn something!
That's what happens when the mightiest alliance in the history of mankind "shows off" beating a 10th rate power from 20,000 cowardly feet.
Ever since the Serbs brought offensively down the invisible "stealth" bomber over Srem, sorties resumed at 20,000 feet, well above anything Serbs possessed that could inflict any offensive damage. It seems ot me, it was NATO that was playing defensive tactics, after being told Serbs would fold and wither away in a mattewr of three days (Sandy Burger's most famous statement).
The Serbs had no choice but wait for the cowards to come down from their ivory towers. In the meantime, they captured three US soliders with an offensive incursion into Macedonia, just to show that it can be done. It's easy being "brave" from 20,000 feet, safe and secure from being shot at.
The real situation was quite diferent. You should consider reading grown up sources on this subject. This is not a high school forum.
Do you have anything credible to say on this Forum?
You see,it is a duty of a well trained army to be invisible for the enemy force!You gott that?You hide to fight another day.I`ll give you one of the best known examples:at the battle of Some in WWI Germans dugg their trenches so well and so deep that when British barage arrived and lasted a couple of days,they had ,almost no casualities!When British sharged and came into open,Germans came out and slaughtered 62 000 of them in one day!It is called,skillfull defence,stupid!
As far as offence go,every NATO report from Allied Farce claimed that "VJ had routed KLA almost to extinction ".
VJ was waiting for you intact!For your information Shoku Brit,when French legionares had entered Kosovo from Albania and when they had seen Yugoslav defences and spot on army leaving in full battle order their commander said:"Thank`s God we didn`t have to invade!"
I believe,that now is the time for you to shut up or start swearing ,or criticize my spelling...or the color of my hair...that`s the way Hoplite is ending his lost debates with tail between his legs!
Clinton's bombers gave up before the snows fell.
Kosta50
The PVO shot down 1 F-177a, but they knocked out of action 2 more. One was eventually repaired and brought into service after a few months. The third was damaged so badly it had to be 'remanufactured'.
3 out of 12 F-117's knocked out of action represents a 25% causulty rate for these planes.
That, as I said before, is a valid assumption given the powerbase involved, but it is not a definitive proof.
Which part needs a definitive proof?
That he was in control of Serbian forces in all three conflicts?
Milosevic was the one negotiating for the Serbs in all three conflicts (Croatia - Geneva, Winter 91/92, Bosnia - Dayton, 95, Kosovo, Ahtisaari/Chernomyrdin peace plan.)
Milosevic controlled the supply base for Serb forces in all three conflicts - in all three instances Serbia served as the base from which the Serbian combatants received supplies and manpower - and in the case of Bosnia, conscription of Serbian men forced many to flee Serbia itself to avoid fighting in Milosevic's wars.
Milosevic was in control of Serbian forces in all three conflicts.
Milosevic's knowing that Serbian forces were committing or had committed warcrimes in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo?
In the case of Croatia, HRW provided Milosevic notification, and Milosevic acknowledged receipt of said information through his personal secretary (chef de cabinet), Goran Milinovic:
Page 14275
3 "The president of the Republic of Serbia asked the competent
4 organs of the Republic of Serbia to investigate the abuses enumerated in
5 your letter, and if any of the citizens of the Republic of Serbia
6 participated in those crimes, they will be brought to justice."
Net result? Nothing. Admittedly this was after the fact, but, again, there was a responsibility to act on Milosevic's part which was not fulfilled, and that is actionable.
In the case of Bosnia, to propose that Milosevic's cocoon of ignorance sufficed to protect him from knowledge of what was going on across the Drina when Bosnian refugees were being transhipped (forcible expulsion - a warcrime) across Serbia to the Austrian border is simply ludicrous - the shelling of Sarajevo (again, a warcrime) was so widely reported that any attempt to depict Milosevic as being simply in the dark as to the activity of the BSA in this matter is simply not worth entertaining.
As to Kosovo, Milosevic received the 1428 page EU-FET Racak report and, again, did nothing as far as taking action. Except to get bombed by NATO, that is.
Milosevic knew in all three instances exactly what his forces were doing.
Control and knowledge - they're both there, and when you add them to Milosevic's inaction, which is a matter of the historical record with Seselj and Arkan serving in the Serbian parliament rather than facing justice for their acts, you have a guilty party in Milosevic.
So how then to address this culpability? You agree that Milosevic (or Bobetko) could never be tried domestically, and if that's the case, then what is the alternative to the ICTY? The Cambodian example of no accountability for one's actions a-la Pol Pot? Of course the ICTY is going to appear biased to some - Milosevic still has an ample support base and the ICTY has been forced upon it's indictees, detainees and their governments through coercion, whether diplomatic, military or economic, but the alternative to this perceived bias towards the victors (which in this instance would have to include all the Security Council Members who voted for adoption of SRES 827, being the US, Britain, France, China, Russia, Brazil, Djibouti, New Zealand, Pakistan, and Spain) is no justice whatsoever, which is simply unacceptable.
As to the double standards between the ICTY and the ICC in regards to the ICC's jurisdiction regarding US Servicemen, we will continue to try our Ronghis, and so long as we do, the issue will not come to a head. Milosevic didn't try his Arkan, Serbia still refuses to try Seselj, and it is upon those rocks which this particular vessel of discontent flounders.
As for Gen. Westmoreland and Johnson, the concept of negligent liability does not involve knowledge.
We're not talking about 'negligent liability' but criminal responsibility - check the ICTY Statute Article 7, para 3
3. The fact that any of the acts referred to in articles 2 to 5 of the present Statute was committed by a subordinate does not relieve his superior of criminal responsibility if he knew or had reason to know that the subordinate was about to commit such acts or had done so and the superior failed to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or to punish the perpetrators thereof.
Thus at the ICTY criminal responsibility requires both knowledge and inaction.
As far as the US Military, criminal responsibility is defined thus:
501. Responsibility for Acts of Subordinates
In some cases, military commanders may be responsible for war crimes committed by subordinate members of the armed forces, or other persons subject to their control. Thus, for instance, when troops commit massacres and atrocities against the civilian population of occupied territory or against prisoners of war, the responsibility may rest not only with the actual perpetrators but also with the commander. Such a responsibility arises directly when the acts in question have been committed in pursuance of an order of the commander concerned. The commander is also responsible if he has actual knowledge, or should have knowledge, through reports received by him or through other means, that troops or other persons subject to his control are about to commit or have committed a war crime and he fails to take the necessary and reasonable steps to insure compliance with the law of war or to punish violators thereof....
So again, both knowledge and inaction are required, and Milosevic meets both requirements in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo, Bobetko meets the requirements for the Medak Pocket, but Westmoreland and Johnson didn't have knowledge at the time, and when they did receive said knowledge, they (Westmoreland) acted. That the sanctions imposed upon those responsible were woefully inadequate is fairly evident, but I would point out that CWO Thompson is held as an example for emulation in the US Army nowadays, and as an organization, the US Army moved to correct the problem that Calley embodied.
The question then is whether anything Miloshevich...
...committed any crimes actionable under the ICTY statutes. And that is exactly what the ICTY is doing.
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