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Evolution Disclaimer Supported
The Advocate (Baton Rouge) ^ | 12/11/02 | WILL SENTELL

Posted on 12/11/2002 6:28:08 AM PST by A2J

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To: general_re; Fester Chugabrew
If you want your children to be taught a falsehood by being taught that it does, so be it. But please don't presume to impose that upon mine.

School choice would resolve this dispute. I suspect that the schools that refrain from teaching evolution as a done deal, will end up having the most successful students -- and the least pathological.

2,161 posted on 01/02/2003 7:48:39 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Physicist
So when you ask "what happened before the Big Bang," you are asking a mathematical question, which does admit of a definitive answer; the knowledge and powers of God as you imagine him don't enter into it.....
......My argument is that nature operates according to knowable rules. It is the antithesis of "anything goes".


Ok. According to your piece of what it was like before the "big bang", time was non existent, yet every direction pointed toward the future. Assuming everything is laid out before us as you have mentioned, & nature operates to knowable rules, then explain the concept of :
$non-existent = zero
Sorry... You don't have the luxury of even adding any operands to that equation, nor can any variables such as time be introduced to the equation. All you have to work with is one big fat "non-existent"... What is our "knowable" rule of how that equation equals to anything besides "non-existent" ?
2,162 posted on 01/02/2003 7:49:14 AM PST by usastandsunited
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To: gore3000
Read through your argument. I imagine it is exactly like the arguments put forth over the past 2 thousand years against anything that seemed to negate a passage in the Bible. They were all eventually silenced. Yours will be too. I doubt you yourself will ever be silenced, but those that think the way you do are going to fall deeper and deeper into obscurity until Creationism as you see it will go the way of the flat earth. If I listen hard, I can hear your voice dwindling even now...

"....racists.....evil-utionists.... I'm melting....."
2,163 posted on 01/02/2003 7:49:17 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: gore3000
All hypothesis are not equally likely. The hypothesis that there are infinite universes for example is totally unscientific because it claims something to have happened about which we know absolutely nothing about.

Yup, just like you said. Your argument there says perfectly that multiple universes are just as unlikely to be fact as religion. After all, "it claims something to have happened which we know absolutely nothing about."

2,164 posted on 01/02/2003 7:53:27 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"Stalin wiped darwinian evolution out of Russia using the firing squad argument."

Yep. He practiced what he believed, and what he believed was ultimately inspired by Darwin. Lysenkoism was his fig leaf, and by extension now it is yours.

I don't want to bring this up, but let us not forget the countless atrocities "inspired" by religion, and yes, even Christianity. Do I think Christianity is evil? No, because I am not going to make the conclusion that because some Christians are evil all are. You and gore are making the conclusion that since some evolutionists are racist or socialist or whatever, that all are.

2,165 posted on 01/02/2003 7:57:24 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: Fester Chugabrew; PatrickHenry
Do you believe there is no connection between Marxism and Darwinism whatsoever? Loaded question. To show you why: Do you think there is no connection between Christianity and fascism (Hitler), slavery, Holocaust, feudalism, inquisitions, molestation, etc. whatsoever?
2,166 posted on 01/02/2003 8:00:08 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: Fester Chugabrew; PatrickHenry
Do you believe there is no connection between Marxism and Darwinism whatsoever?

Loaded question. To show you why: Do you think there is no connection between Christianity and fascism (Hitler), slavery, Holocaust, feudalism, inquisitions, molestation, etc. whatsoever?

2,167 posted on 01/02/2003 8:00:22 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: B. Rabbit
"Do you think there is no connection between Christianity and fascism (Hitler), slavery, Holocaust, feudalism, inquisitions, molestation, etc. whatsoever?

No. But the issue is creationism, not Christianity.

2,168 posted on 01/02/2003 8:20:54 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: B. Rabbit
"I don't want to bring this up, but let us not forget the countless atrocities "inspired" by religion, and yes, even Christianity.

How long did it take that Red Herring to evolve? Why keep bringing up Christianity? One need not be a Christian to subscribe to creationist theory, but to be a Communist one must subscribe to evolutionist theory.

2,169 posted on 01/02/2003 8:25:47 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: PatrickHenry
"I have been patient and polite. I have responded with diligence and I have given citations for all the assertions I have made.

No. What you've done is make a mountain out of a mole hill question. What you've NOT done is answer the question forthrightly. An honest answer would not require anyone to abandon the validity of evolution theory, so why be afraid to face any connection between the two? Is this kind of obfuscation characteristic of those who represent your views?

2,170 posted on 01/02/2003 8:29:42 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
No. But the issue is creationism, not Christianity.

How does one argue against your idea of Biblical fundamentalist creationism without going after the source? You attack evolution on scientific grounds but claim a beginning based on completely un-scientific grounds. Once attacked, you become defensive and say that evolutionists just want to bash religion.

Then you make loaded comparision questions between evolution and communism. I'm sure there is a link somewhere, just like the community leaders of some of the Christian world are linked with molestation. Not all evolutionists are communists or racists (in fact, social darwinism was an extremely capitalist idea) and not all Christians are molesters. You're making an unfair statement.

2,171 posted on 01/02/2003 8:29:51 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: general_re
Exactly why I recommend unrestrained hedonism from the get-go.

Well, I suppose then that "restrained" hedonism is just a code name for Bondage & Discipline.....

;-)

2,172 posted on 01/02/2003 8:35:58 AM PST by longshadow
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Do you believe there is no connection between Marxism and Darwinism whatsoever?

What you've done is make a mountain out of a mole hill question. What you've NOT done is answer the question forthrightly. An honest answer would not require anyone to abandon the validity of evolution theory, so why be afraid to face any connection between the two? Is this kind of obfuscation characteristic of those who represent your views?

I will answer the question. Yes. There is a connection. But don't try to play innocent. You are trying to establish a cause and effect relationship that is false. You are implying that to be a evolutionist, you have to be a communist. It is quite the opposite, and therefore unimportant to the argument.

2,173 posted on 01/02/2003 8:38:31 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: tpaine
Where are publicly funded schools prohibited from teaching a theory which acknowledges the existence of God? I believe our constitution explicity states that our government shall not establish a particular religion. I don't see a conflict. The intelligent design people refer to the existence of an Intelligent Designer, but I don't believe they anywhere specifically require it to be one god or another.
2,174 posted on 01/02/2003 8:39:55 AM PST by newguy357
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To: B. Rabbit
"Then you make loaded comparision . . ."

Have you not made a loaded assumption in stating that I somehow represent Biblical fundamentalist creationism? Is that the only kind of creationism allowed? I've not reduced evolutionism to a singlular level like that.

"Not all evolutionists are communists . . ."

Very true. But all communists are evolutionists and atheists at heart.

". . .you become defensive and say that evolutionists just want to bash religion."

Given the general tone of discourse from evolutionists to creationists, I would say they take delight in bashing religion. Yes. Should they be denied credibility because they may be defensive about this? Does this somehow add weight to evolutionist "science?"

2,175 posted on 01/02/2003 8:43:32 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I've always thought our forefathers were more concerned about the Federal Government somehow advocating/establishing/funding a particular denomination of religion than a generic understanding of God and the rights we have from Him by nature.

Of course, and the left want to hide this fact. I will look for the article where I read this, but as I understand it, sometime in the 1800's Webster was arguing in front of the supreme court that a public school system should not be created because it wouldn't ensure that children were raised in Christian values--the supreme court agreed with his reasoning, but determined it was worth the risk.
2,176 posted on 01/02/2003 8:43:56 AM PST by newguy357
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To: B. Rabbit
"I will answer the question. Yes. There is a connection. But don't try to play innocent. You are trying to establish a cause and effect relationship that is false. You are implying that to be a evolutionist, you have to be a communist.

The candor is appreciated, but you err in assuming the direction of any cause and effect relationship I see between the two. I mean, just because all communists happen to be evolutionists does not mean the treaching of evolution is responsible for bringing about communism. A conclusion like that would be like, . . . well . . . drawing a line between two similar fossils and assuming one evolved from the other.

2,177 posted on 01/02/2003 8:49:19 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: usastandsunited
According to your piece of what it was like before the "big bang", time was non existent, yet every direction pointed toward the future.

No, no: At the instant of the Big Bang (not "before"), all the directions pointed towards the future. Think again of the South Pole: at that point (not south of it), all the directions point north.

[Geek alert: note the caveat in my repost. Some current models have the universe--meaning "everything we can in principle travel to"--arising out of a higher-dimensional multiverse, in which there exist one (or more!) timelike dimensions and up to 26 extra space dimensions. I reiterate that these directions are not parallel to or equivalent to the time and space dimensions of our universe, and events in that superspace (assuming it exists) don't come "before" or "after" events in our universe in the context of our time. To say that they do would be like standing to the south of a desktop globe, tracing a meridian to the south pole of the globe, and saying, "see, I am to the south of this point!"]

I'm not clear about what you're asking in the rest of your post.

2,178 posted on 01/02/2003 8:49:41 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Fester Chugabrew
...to be a Communist one must subscribe to evolutionist theory.

False.

2,179 posted on 01/02/2003 8:51:13 AM PST by general_re
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Have you not made a loaded assumption in stating that I somehow represent Biblical fundamentalist creationism? Is that the only kind of creationism allowed? I've not reduced evolutionism to a singlular level like that.

Fair point. But do you concede that the entire movement for creationist teachings in public schools would instantly halt if it were put forth that Muslim, Hindu, Cherokee, and Buddhist creation mythology would be given an equal share of time in classrooms as Christianity? Maybe you yourself wouldn't mind, but everybody else would go into a hysterical panic.

I did jump to a conlcusion, but the only voices you here begging for creationist classrooms are Christian fundamentalists. Therefore, 99% of the time the assumption is correct. Agreed?

Would you say that all Nazi fascists were Christians? (just so I can make a similar comparison...)

2,180 posted on 01/02/2003 8:51:44 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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