US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam

The Indian Express ^ | 12/9/02 | Dana Milbank

[1bigdictator]

US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam

Dana Milbank

Washington, December 8 PRESIDENT Bush finds himself in a rare disagreement with Conservatives in his party over his efforts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that is not responsible for anti-American terrorism. In a score of speeches since the September 11, 2001, attacks, Bush has called for tolerance of Muslims, describing Islam as ‘‘a faith based upon peace and love and compassion’’ and a religion committed to ‘‘morality and learning and tolerance.’’

But a large number of foreign policy hawks — some of them with advisory roles in the Bush administration — have joined religious conservatives in taking issue with Bush’s characterisations. While most of them understand the political rationale for Bush’s statements — there’s no benefit in antagonising Muslim allies such as Pakistan and Indonesia — they say the claim is dishonest and destined to fail. For Bush and for the country, the outcome of the argument is crucial.

The administration, and moderate governments in Arab and Muslim nations, are struggling to prevent the war on terrorism from becoming what Osama bin Laden wants: a war of civilisation between the Judeo-Christian West and a resentful and impoverished Muslim world. Calling Islam a peaceful religion ‘‘is an increasingly hard argument to make,’’ said Kenneth Adelman, a former Reagan official who serves on the Bush Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board.

‘‘The more you examine the religion, the more militaristic it seems. After all, its founder, Mohammed, was a warrior, not a peace advocate like Jesus.’’ Another member of the Pentagon advisory board, Eliot Cohen of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, wrote an article on the Wall Street Journal editorial page arguing that the enemy of the US is not terrorism ‘‘but militant Islam.’’ ‘‘The enemy has an ideology, and an hour spent surfing the Web will give the average citizen at least the kind of insights that he or she might have found during World Wars I and II by reading Mein Kampf or the writings of Lenin, Stalin or Mao.’’

Cohen acknowledges it is impolitic and ‘‘deeply uncomfortable’’ for the administration to say such things. ‘‘Nobody would like to think that a major world religion has a deeply aggressive and dangerous strain in it — a strain often excused or misrepresented in the name of good feelings. But uttering uncomfortable and unpleasant truths is one of the things that defines leadership,’’ he said.

At the same time, social conservatives are resisting Bush’s efforts to portray Islam in a favorable light. ‘‘Islam is at war against us,’’ Paul Weyrich, an activist who is influential in the White House, wrote recently.

‘‘I have had much good to say about President Bush in recent months. But one thing that concerned me before September 11 and concerns me even more now is his administration’s constant promotion of Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance just like Judaism or Christianity. It is neither.’’ — LATWP

[Angelus Errare]

"Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Very good.

Now can you please either explain to me or ask one of our resident Jewish posters whether or not they see this passage as referring to Christ. Remember, we're looking for what Jews believe about that passage, not what you and I believe.

[Jael]

They may not believe that the Son of God is the Messiah. But according to that passage, they know he has a son.

Muslims also do not believe in Jehovah, they believe in a moon god named Allah.

[Angelus Errare]

"But according to that passage, they know he has a son."

Very good. Now I suggest we call in one of the dozens of Jewish Freepers to get their opinion on the verse. Though I do not claim oracle, I would be willing to bet that the idea of Yahweh having a Son is not the way they read the text.

Still, I readily suggest you invite one in here to prove me wrong.

[Jael]

invectives that you hurl against Islam

Spin, spin, spin. I simply posted from the Koran what Islam says. And I posted what God says from the Scriptures. It would seem that you find yourself in disagreement with one or both texts. Feel free to let us know which one.

[Jael]

They of course would not believe that was speaking about Christ. But it is speaking to God having a son.

[Angelus Errare]

"They of course would not believe that was speaking about Christ. But it is speaking to God having a son."

I'm fairly certain that most Jews would here again disagree with this point and even if they acknowledged that God had a son (which, here again, I don't think that they do), this has nothing to do with believing that Christ came in the flesh, which, under the interpretation you've laid out, is the Scriptural grounds for whether or not one is the follower of an antichrist.

Here again, Jews do not believe that Christ was either God's Son or that He came in the flesh as the Messiah or as God.

[Jael]

That's not what I said

under the interpretation you've laid out, is the Scriptural grounds for whether or not one is the follower of an antichrist.

I said, according to the Koran's lies about Jesus Christ and what Scripture says, they are an antichrist religion.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The Jew, beloved of God, the apple of his eye, does not deny the Father. Amen.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"You are lying again Luis."

What a pathetic excuse for a Christian you are.

Here are your words:

"They do believe that the Messiah will be the Son of God."

What then did you mean when you said "will be"?

If Jews believed that God has already had a Son, then they would believe that to be Jesus Christ.

They do not.

You acknowledged as much by using the words "will be", meaning it (the birth of the Son of God) is yet to happen according to the Jews.

Pretty common knowledge...

You also said that those who do not believe that Jesus is who He is, are the anti-Christ. Ergo, you are claiming that Jews are the anti-Christ.

You'll need to put the shovel down soon, and rent a backhoe to finish this hole you have dug yourself into.

[Jael]

Why are you so hostile? Really. First you lie about people posting on this thread. Then you call a woman stupid for her typos. What next??? And let's not forget that YOU have ignored every bit of proof from the Koran showing what Islam teaches regarding Jews and Christians. It even disses your Catholic religion. Yet still you spin on, trying to make up things that no one said.

I'm going to give you some advice. You had better get off the Jews. God takes it very seriously when people try and malign them. You'd be far better served not to continue on that path.

Also, you posted something from the Bible trying to say that God was telling people to go and kill. That was a blasphmeous lie and you know it. It also made you look very foolish again, showing that you didn't know Scripture.

Go back to your pro Islam hole. Your kind is not needed on an honest thread.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Wow!

That's as good a job of double-talking as I have ever been honored to be witness to!

"1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?"

"The Jew, beloved of God, the apple of his eye, does not deny the Father."

Which is it that makes one the anti-Christ in your book?

I thought you kept saying that denying Jesus is the Son of God was the qualifier?

In fact, that's exactly what you said!

Now, you're talking about not denying the Father?

Muslims do not deny the Father either.

[Jael]

2 Corinthians 4:1  ¶Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Luis Gonzalez]

You call me a liar?

"First you lie about people posting on this thread."

Show me where I did that.

"Then you call a woman stupid for her typos."

Show me where I did that.

Let's not forget that I have posted literal passages from the Koran proving you wrong.

" It even disses your Catholic religion."

Where did I say that I was a Catholic? Show me.

"You had better get off the Jews."

I am not the oe maligning the Jews, you are.

"Also, you posted something from the Bible trying to say that God was telling people to go and kill."

I provided you with Chapter and verse, Luke 19:27, go look it up yourself.

Your ignorance is showing.

An honest thread?

You are the one making this a dishonest thread.

[Jael]

Oh Yes, Muslims do deny the Father.

John 1:1  ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2  The same was in the beginning with God.

3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5  ¶And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Islam does not recognize Jehovah. They do not worship Him, the Great I Am, the Ancient of Days.

They worship a monotheistic godling called Allah. He has nothing in common with the great Jehovah.

[Angelus Errare]

Here again, I think Jael is confusing you with me at least half of the time (skull stomper is doing this as well, judging from some of his comments to you). I stated in one of my first posts that I was Catholic and I was also the first one to bring up her inconsistent application of theology in regard to the Jews.

Note that only after you repeatedly asked her to state his opinion on the Jews with all of the subtlety of a freight train did she provide anything resembling an explanation.

[Jael]

I am not the oe maligning the Jews, you are.

I would never say anything negative about the Choosen ones of God.

"Also, you posted something from the Bible trying to say that God was telling people to go and kill."

I provided you with Chapter and verse, Luke 19:27

And you think that is God telling people to go and kill for him??? Did you not take the time to read the whole parable? That isn't God speaking, it's the husbandman. Brush up on your bible reading and you wouldn't be so publically shamed by your disasters.

[Luis Gonzalez]

One God, different languages.

[Jael]

No one is confused. But thanks for trying.

[Jael]

Jehovah is not Allah.

[Angelus Errare]

Funny, millions of Maronite, Coptic, Chaldean, and Syriac Christians seem to think so. Are they following the antichrist too?

[Jael]

If you read the Qur'an's description of Allah, and read the Bible's description of God, it becomes obvious you are reading about two different persons. Allah orders his followers to kill those who deny Islam, while God instructs us to love our enemies. Allah had no son while God sent His Son to die for sinful men. Allah is "unknowable" while God seeks a personal relationship with His creation, man.

The spirit behind Islam is an entirely different spirit... a spirit that denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Any Christian who accepts the notion that Allah is God creates an impossible situation. Since the Qur'an contains our only revelation about Allah, they will be forced to look there as their authority. The Qur'an specifically denies the deity of Christ!