We Need More Carriers and More Marines

National Security Online ^ | 12/6/2002 | Christopher W. Holton

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

[Willie Green]

Wasn't Rumsfeld the one who originally planned these cutbacks?

[weikel]

We Need More Carriers and More Marines

Build more carriers and call up reserves no draft though.

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

I think you are mistaken. He called for the continuation of decomm's. The budget for building new state of the art United States Ships is far better nowadays. (Especially since Clinton) All's Clinton did was create the TERA program (early outs) that are no longer. (Believe me the Navy lost alot of good old schoolers) And "Don't Ask Don't Tell" fiasco.

[Always A Marine]

Hear, hear! There is no substitute for having enough -- or indeed a little too much -- since history shows that the unthinkable eventually does happen. We have downsized to match our wishes, but are now hoping we have enough to meet all of our far-flung commitments.

[Poohbah]

Nope. This all happened on Clinton's watch.

However, the Forrestal and Kitty Hawk-class carriers are tremendously expensive relative to nuclear-powered carriers--fuel oil O&M costs are about 3-4 times as much as the same costs for new nuclear cores across the lifespan of the ship. O&M cost reductions were the biggest reason the Navy decommissioned these ships.

[Poohbah]

Had the Navy been allowed to follow through with that program, we would have at our disposal, right now, as many as 17 aircraft carriers. (Of course we would not have the airplanes or personnel that make aircraft carriers what they are, but that is a different subject.)

Nontrivial point that is completely glossed over...

[Willie Green]

Nah, I'm pretty sure that Rummy set the pattern for downsizing the hardware.
He prefers spending the money on the golly-gee-whiz-bang computer stuff instead. (I seem to recall debates about him wanting to defend satellites from terrorist attacks. It seems kind of bizarre in retrospect.) Klintoon was very heavy into the social engineering, but I still think it was Rummy who changed the hardware priorities back when he worked for Papa Bush.

[spokeshave]

Posted earlier today....upgrading some early Boomers to launch cruse missiles.....

[NormsRevenge]

Re-Build the FMF

Clinton shrunk our abilities to respond in a timely and effective manner anywhere, anytime... He wasn;t a pacifist,he IS a communist.. He IS the ultimate sleeper agent in a Trojan Horse.. For 8 years, he worked from within to cripple that which we rely on to defend our freedoms. He over-committed troops worldwide and never really cared if it left us vulnerable as that was his goal.

[NormsRevenge]

Re-Build Expand the FMF

[Mike Fieschko]

Regarding more carriers, with the Nimitz class ships cost $4b, there's a proposal for a smaller, coastal water 'pocket' carrier:

"According to some reports, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s spring 2001 Quadrennial Defense Review considered recommending that the Navy stop building large-deck Nimitz-class carriers in favor of smaller carriers that could be deployed in the coastal waters. This new class of 'pocket' aircraft carriers, designated the Corsair, is envisioned as a vessel of only 6,000 tons displacement, with a crew of as few as 20 sailors. The Corsair might carry half a dozen of the Vertical Take-Off variant of the Joint Strike Fighter being developed for the Marine Corps. Alternatvely, the Corsairs might employ Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles [UCAVs]. Vessels like the Corsair might be built for several hundred million dollars, compared with the $4 billion construction cost of a Nimitz carrier. The Corsair could allow the Navy to operate in coastal waters, within range of shore-base anti-shipping cruise missiles, according to proponents of the concept. It could also allow the Navy to provide air cover for smaller post-Cold War operations, such as the peacekeeping missions in Haiti or East Timor, that either divert a Nimitz-class carrier or are conducted without air support.

"The CVX design effort in the late 1990s onsidered a variety of alternative mid-sized carrier designs, including derivatives with alternative flight decks, fossil-fuel propulsion, low signature monohulls, and low signature catamaran."

[quote from globalsecurity.org's site]

Has anything more developed along lines of a Corsair class carrier?

[Poohbah]

Nah, I'm pretty sure that Rummy set the pattern for downsizing the hardware.

Too bad you're mistaken.

He prefers spending the money on the golly-gee-whiz-bang computer stuff instead.

Notice that we're not fighting a large industrialized nation-state?

(I seem to recall debates about him wanting to defend satellites from terrorist attacks. It seems kind of bizarre in retrospect.)

During the late 1980s and early 1990s, we found out that communications satellites could be jammed and reconnaisance satellites at least partially blinded with techniques that Achmed the Awful could develop with modest amounts of money. It took a fair amount of money to cure these problems.

Klintoon was very heavy into the social engineering, but I still think it was Rummy who changed the hardware priorities back when he worked for Papa Bush.

The only defense-related post Rumsfeld held during the first Bush Administration was as a member of the National Defense University's Board of Visitors, not exactly a powerhouse of defense policy-making.

[weikel]

Well many small ships especially with carriers (provided they can operate without docking for similar periods) might be more effective than a few large ones.

[Willie Green]

Too bad you're mistaken.

Yeah, I suppose so. It must've been Cheney.

[Aric2000]

This may seem like a pipedream, but this is what I think we should do. A small aircraft carrier is Great, but then add to that concept a submarine. A GIANT submarine with aircraft within it's belly.

The boat surfaces, opens it's aircraft doors and start launching aircraft. pops up anytime, anywhere, no escorts needed. Pops up. launches it's planes then goes back down until it is time for retrieval. The planes are lifted to the top flight deck and take off, just like on a normal carrier. Doesn't need to be a deep water sub, 3-500 feet would do it.

Surface, launch, submerge, surface, retrieve, submerge, and off to it's next theater. It would be huge, but it would be capable of much more and would be less expensive then the fleet of ships it takes now to support a carrier.

[RKV]

Well Poo, other than work for Bush, Rummy has done quite a lot as his DOD bio shows. You seem to have left out a few details (not suprisingly given your track record).

"Mr. Rumsfeld resigned from Congress in 1969 during his fourth term to join the President's Cabinet. From 1969 to 1970, he served as Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity and Assistant to the President. From 1971 to 1972, he was Counsellor to the President and Director of the Economic Stabilization Program. In 1973, he left Washington, DC, to serve as U.S. Ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, Belgium (1973-1974).

In August 1974, he was called back to Washington, DC, to serve as Chairman of the transition to the Presidency of Gerald R. Ford. He then became Chief of Staff of the White House and a member of the President's Cabinet (1974-1975). He served as the 13th U.S. Secretary of Defense, the youngest in the country's history (1975-1977). "


http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/secdef_bio.html

[RKV]

I should add the Rummy retired as a Captain (Reserve) and was an aviator. See the bio for more.

[Poohbah]

The specific period Willie Green cited was 1989-1992, and that was the only defense-related post he held during those particular years.