An Insult to Both Tolkien and America

Oregon Magazine ^ | December 4, 2002 | Larry Leonard

[Sam Cree]

After reading this entertaining thread, I agree that Viggo is a jerk politically, either a dumb liberal, or maybe even a socialist.

But he would have been right if his (idiotic) thoughts, instead of being an echo of the 100 year old leftist refrain against capitalism, had instead implied that we should quit depending on middle eastern oil.

The money that finances terrorism comes directly from our dependence on foreign oil. If we could end this dependence, those folk might well just sink back into the sand.

[My back yard]

You have described my own political journey, very well. I am not as old nor as educated as was he. But, I have taken the time to read what Bush himself says -- not relying on what people like Viggo here seem to imagine he is saying -- and I believe Tolkien would too. I see him making the right choices, and for the right reasons, and I believe Tolkien would too.

I enjoyed your very knowledgeable post and opinion.

[My back yard]

I would exercise caution in claiming Tolkien for any specific position or sentiment about the present day.

LOL, something in this sentence sounds like the line in the FOTR movie - from Aragorn "A little caution...I know what hunts you. "

[Sam Cree]

I agree that eccentricity is a characteristic of artists, it is one of the delightful things about them, really.

But I wish leftist politics, as Viggo demonstrates here, were not also one of the characteristics.

Leftist philosophy requires that everyone work together for the good of the community (the state). In practice this usually has eliminated individual freedom and personal liberty.

For artists this has meant the end of precisely that which the art world claims to cherish, free expression. I just wish some of these people would think things through once in awhile.

[AnnaZ]

Has anyone heard from Brittany Spears yet?

At least the pictures are better!

On that last thought, some Freeper(ette)s may not agree with you.

 

;^)

[HairOfTheDog]

I would exercise caution in claiming Tolkien for any specific position or sentiment about the present day.

I agree, Iguana.... Your sentiment mirrors a conversation I had with Sam Cree this morning in the hobbit hole.

To: Sam Cree

I think there is room in Tolkien's philosophy for lots of people to feel at home in his ideal.

I dunno... I don't particularly claim Tolkien as a conservative of today. I think to try to fit him in a party platform trivializes a great fantasy. His world is not bound by our reality, our motives, or our problems.

I think Tolkien would hate today and not necessarily be conservative. He was English, after all, and even English conservatives are not like US... He was mourning industry and its impact on the world, so I hardly think he would be on the capitalist bandwagon. I think he would hate big business and big cities full of skyscrapers as much as he hated the industrial age.

He painted an ideal that was beautiful, but can no longer be. An ideal that I share with him. The Shire as a system of governance does not work in modern society with millions of people. That doesn't make it any less attractive as a place to escape to in our hearts.

45108 posted on 12/04/2002 8:59 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

Tolkien's world appeals to me in its simplicity of life, its rural and basic morality, its absence of bureaucracy and pollution that is life today. Tolkien was conservative in his dislike of power and control over people, but not in our view of unbridled capitalism or industry.

[The Iguana]

He would certainly take Bush over Gore, I think - notwithstanding the unfortunate fact that he's American.

He'd probably like the ranch. He'd probably hate the strip malls in Crawford.

[null and void]

Really? I'll check it out. Thanks!

[The Iguana]

LOL, something in this sentence sounds like the line in the FOTR movie - from Aragorn "A little caution...I know what hunts you. "

If only Viggo had exercised a little caution before opening his mouth.

[A Navy Vet]

Simple, truthful, edgy, and controversial. I like it!

[Sam Cree]

"He probably would have been a Whig had they still existed"

My reading of Tolkien has caused me to surmise this also. Particularly because of his creation of the Shire as a mythology for Anglo Saxons. I believe the Whig philosophies were rooted directly in Anglo Saxon traditions.

Interestingly, I believe F.A. Hayek, who is one of my inspirations, also considered himself to be in the tradition of the English Whig. And I have read that both Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan are admirers of Hayek. Certainly many of our founding fathers thoughts were also derived from the Whigs.

Hair, did you see my response in the Hole to your post to me?

This is turning out to be a fairly interesting thread, I was worried about it. Still wish Viggo would have a little more sense about politics.

[BibleBaseballBarbecue]

LOL! Excellent!

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not familiar with Whigs...

Yes, I did see your response, and wondered if you wanted to continue the conversation here, since the hobbit hole has moved off in five other directions, as is its habit ;~D

But I have to run in to town (evil wicked city of men) in a bit, so I may be slow to respond.

[Sam Cree]

"continue the conversation here"

Oh sure, this is fun...I'm pretty busy from now on also.

[SuziQ]

They weren't Iraqis, either.

No, they weren't, they were upper middle class, well educated Saudi men who had been twisted politically by the likes of Osama bin Laden and his al Queda buddies. Al Queda has been supported in the past by Saddam Hussein, and I suspect, continues to be so.

It has already been established that Saddam is supporting the families of homocide bombers in Israel. He continues to foment unrest in that part of the world, and oil aside, it is dangerous for everyone in the world if that area explodes.

[WaterDragon]

I'm going to point my tootsies toward the crackling fire and drift away from earth....re-re-re-re-re-reading The Ring series! LOL! Viggo can't compete with that.

[The Iguana]

I say "Whig" because of some of Tolkien's pointed comments about "privelege" at Oxford - namely, his fight to ensure better qualified candidates to top academic posts over titled lords.

Tories of the mid-century were in most respects equivalent to the Whigs of a century previous: classically liberal, mainly middle or upper middle class, strongly in favor of property rights and democracy, traditional in most social mores.

Burke, of course, was also a Whig.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!

[redhead]

""GOD! why did you put so many idiots in the world at the same time!!" Bull Meechum aka the great santini"

[Sam Cree]

You know, Viggo may not realize it, but that oil is of no value to "evil corporations" except that there is demand for it from ordinary citizens like himself.

The corporate need for oil is nothing more than a reflection of the real need, which comes from ourselves.