Posted on 12/04/2002 6:28:15 AM PST by MissTargets
FOP withdraws opposition to bill
The Associated Press
COLUMBUS - The state's largest police union won't oppose a new version of a bill to allow Ohioans to carry hidden guns, but Gov. Bob Taft still backs the Ohio State Highway Patrol's demand that drivers and their passengers not be allowed to carry them, his spokesman said Tuesday.
The signal from the Fraternal Order of Police marked the first time the group has not opposed the idea since 1995, Columbus Police Sgt. Mike Taylor said. Taft says he won't support a bill that police groups oppose. The Senate Civil Justice Committee accepted a substitute version of the bill the House passed in March. It makes major changes in who may apply for a permit to carry concealed weapons and how law enforcement checks those applicants.
The bill would authorize Ohio's sheriffs to issue permits to carry concealed weapons to residents who pass a criminal background check and take an approved safety course. Ohio would become the 44th state with some form of permission to carry hidden guns.
The bill's future, though, is still uncertain. With only five legislative days before the current session of the Legislature ends, the House would have to agree to the Senate changes and Taft would either have to sign the bill or allow it to become law without his signature.
Taft spoke with representatives of law enforcement groups about his concerns about the bill, spokesman Joe Andrews said. He wants to add requirements to offer trigger locks when a gun is sold and information about the safe storage of weapons, Andrews said. Gun owners would not be required to buy locks or store their weapons at home, he said.
Taft also wants to keep concealed weapons out of vehicles, Andrews said. The patrol, which ultimately reports to Taft, believes current law that allows drivers and passengers to leave guns on seats with ammunition nearby is enough, patrol spokesman Lt. John Born said.
However, conservatives in the Senate and House could balk at including such a provision.
''That's a deal-killer,'' said Sen. Lynn Wachtmann, a Napoleon Republican and co-sponsor of the Senate version of the bill.
The Senate version would require fingerprinting of applicants - an idea opposed by many House Republicans - and would prohibit permits for those who have assaulted a police officer even if the charge was a misdemeanor, a major FOP concern.
The changes also include allowing employers - public or private - to dictate whether people can carry hidden guns on their premises and ordering the attorney general to produce information on when Ohio law permits a person to use deadly force. It also sets at 12 hours the length of a required gun safety course.
Sen. Jim Jordan, an Urbana Republican and gun-rights advocate, was not happy that applicants would have to be fingerprinted but said that requiring sheriffs to destroy the prints within 20 days made the provision easier to accept.
''Overall, if we can get a concealed carry bill that's reasonable, I think it's a step in the right direction and a win for Ohioans,'' Jordan said.
Senate hearings had stopped when the state appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court a ruling declaring Ohio's concealed weapons law unconstitutional. The 1st Ohio District Court of Appeals ruled April 10 that the state's ban violated the state Constitution's guarantee that people can arm themselves for self-defense.
The Supreme Court, however, has kept the ban in effect while it considers the case and no ruling is expected before the end of the legislative session, so backers urged the Senate to resume hearings
Any Ohio Freepers out there, please call your Senators
The laws against concealed weapons will be found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and then all bets are off.
Hold out and keep Tafts feet over the fire.
Wednesday, December 4, 2002
Lee Leonard
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Key Senate revisions in a concealed-weapons bill yesterday caused a major police group to drop its opposition and Gov. Bob Taft to list, for the first time, some restrictions the legislation must include if he is to support it.
The Fraternal Order of Police, which represents 24,000 officers, dropped its opposition yesterday, saying it now is neutral. The National Rifle Association, representing 200,000 Ohioans, essentially declared victory.
But House Speaker Larry Householder said the House might not go along with a Senate rewrite of House Bill 274, which the House passed March 21.
"I'm not sure what we'll do,'' he said late yesterday. "We could ask for a conference committee (to negotiate the differences). We may not want to do that.'' He added that he expects the House to adjourn for the year on Friday. Bills not passed by then would have to be reintroduced next session, which starts in January.
Nevertheless, both John Hohenwarter, a Midwest regional lobbyist for the NRA, and Rep. James Aslanides, R-Coshocton, the House sponsor, predicted the Senate version would be approved by the House and signed by Taft.
The revised proposal -- negotiated by Sen. Jeff Jacobson, R-Vandalia, with the NRA and FOP -- was released to the Senate Judiciary Committee on Civil Justice and placed on track for a vote at the end of the week.
The most recent version would strengthen the training requirements for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. It also would allow law-enforcement officers who stop motorists to instantly check a State Highway Patrol database to determine whether they are permit-holders.
Some gun-rights groups said too many concessions have been made to law enforcement and bureaucracy.
The bill still would permit sheriffs to issue permits to Ohioans 21 or older who have no felony record or history of mental problems and who complete a certified course on handling and using guns.
The governor talked with officials from the FOP and other law-enforcement organizations "to see how they stand and what their concerns are,'' spokesman Joe Andrews said.
Taft has threatened to veto any such bill unless it is supported by a majority of law-enforcement groups.
The Buckeye State Sheriffs Association supports the original bill and the revised version, a spokesman said yesterday. The Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police and the State Highway Patrol remain opposed.
The FOP change in position received various interpretations.
"I think the members of the FOP at this point would not oppose House Bill 274,'' Mike Taylor of the Fraternal Order of Police of Ohio told the Senate committee.
Hohenwarter said, "I think the neutrality is a nod of support in this case.''
Senate President Richard H. Finan, R-Cincinnati, said he expects the FOP to ask the governor to sign the bill.
But Taylor said that neutral means just that.
"We have no intention of asking (Taft) to sign the bill. I don't think we want to influence him or attempt to influence him one way or the other.''
As he spoke with law-enforcement officials, Taft put forth this list of items he wants in the bill:
* A tougher penalty for carrying a concealed handgun without a permit.
* A provision on illegal transportation of a loaded weapon. The Highway Patrol's major complaint, said Patrol Lt. Gary Lewis, is that under the bill, an officer could not charge a motorist for having a loaded gun on the seat.
* Tougher requirements for mentally incompetent people to prove they are cured before they can obtain a permit.
* A prohibition against off-duty corrections officers carrying concealed weapons.
* Required requalification with the weapon when renewing the permit every six years.
* No concealed weapons in sports venues or government buildings.
* A requirement that trigger locks be offered for sale with every gun purchase and that an educational pamphlet on safe storage be distributed with each gun bought and permit issued.
The list might change, Andrews said.
Jacobson drew grumbles from gun-rights advocates when he pointed out that sheriffs would take fingerprints and Social Security numbers from permit applicants. The fingerprints would have to be destroyed within 20 days after action on the application.
Doug Joseph, a representative of the Ohio Gun Rights Coalition and the Ohio branch of Gun Owners of America, said the House version "severely restricts the freedom of law-abiding gun owners, but the Senate's proposed changes will virtually ensure that no law-abiding citizen will be able to carry a concealed firearm -- even for self-defense.''
Toby Hoover, executive director of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said Jacobson didn't consult her group and that the bill has a number of issues, including whether permit-holders' names are public records and whether private business owners are responsible for people carrying firearms on their property.
"We're building a case here for defense of oneself against criminals,'' Hoover said. "The reality is, most people who kill each other know each other. They've done an awful lot of work to pass something that the majority of Ohioans do not want.''
04 December 2002
Conceal-carry bill wins FOP backing; Taft suppport unclear
Jacobson-brokered changes tighten law
By Kristy Eckert
e-mail address: keckert@coxohio.com
Columbus Bureau
COLUMBUS | Changes introduced Tuesday to concealed-and-carry gun legislation have won acceptance from the Ohio FOP, a move that could eventually lead to legislation Gov. Bob Taft would sign.
Taft's support is not assured, however. He has a list of additional changes he would like to see and even then, is making no guarantees he would sign a bill into law, said Joe Andrews, Taft's spokesman.
"He’s asking for these changes to be put into place, and he’s talking to law enforcement officers," Andrews said.
The latest changes were brokered by state Sen. Jeff Jacobson, R-Butler Twp., who said he has been working for a bill acceptable to both the Fraternal Order of Police and the National Rifle Association.
No group is completely satisfied, but Jacobson said he's confident the bill is a good compromise.
The latest version proposes more stringent requirements to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, including 12 hours of gun training and passing a gun-use test, which would make Ohio the second toughest place to earn a permit, according to the NRA.
Also, people with felony records would not be issued permits, and anyone applying for a permit would need to submit fingerprints for a background check.
The changes were introduced in the Senate Judiciary Committee on Civil Justice, chaired by Jacobson, to a conceal-and-carry bill that passed the House last March. The committee will debate the bill today and is expected to take a vote Thursday. If passed out of committee, it would go to the full Senate. If passed by the Senate, it would go back to the House to ratify the changes.
Taft has said he won’t sign conceal-carry legislation if major law enforcement groups oppose it. Andrews said, however, that does not mean they must all support it to get Taft’s approval.
The Ohio FOP, which represents 24,000 officers, now is comfortable with the bill because of the stricter licensing criteria and training, spokesman Mike Taylor told the Senate committee.
The Buckeye Sheriff's Association supported the less-stringent version that passed the House.
Two other prominent law-enforcement groups still oppose the measure.
The Ohio Highway Patrol does not want people to be allowed to have loaded weapons in their vehicles.
"The bottom line is, we are in opposition of the current introduced bill based on concealed transportation of a loaded firearm for officer safety and concerns of the motoring public," said Lt. Gary Lewis, patrol spokesman.
If the bill were changed to prohibit loaded guns in vehicles, "our concerns have been addressed," Lewis said. He said a member of the patrol talked with Taft on Tuesday about the concern.
The Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police also opposes the bill because it makes for more dangerous communities, said spokesman John Gilchrist. Also, he said, people who truly need to carry concealed weapons, such as businessmen who must carry a lot of cash or women who have been threatened, are already permitted to do so.
The group claims that in states where concealed-weapon laws are in place, police officers’ jobs are more dangerous and there is more gun violence.
Taft has a list of concerns as well, according to Andrews. They include:
• People should not be able to carry guns "on person" in cars, although what constitutes "on person" is unclear.
• Concealed weapons should not be permitted in sports stadiums and government buildings.
• People should have seven days, not the proposed 45, to produce a permit if caught not carrying one.
• The penalty for carrying a gun without a permit should be increased.
• A database listing all permit holders should be created.
• Recertification should require some sort of performance test.
Contact Kristy Eckert at (614) 224-1625 or keckert@coxohio.com
Fraternal Order of Police drops its opposition
By JIM PROVANCE
TOLEDO BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU
COLUMBUS - The Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, a union representing 24,000 current and former officers, withdrew its opposition yesterday to a controversial bill allowing Ohioans to carry concealed handguns.
Supporters of the bill believe the move is significant in that Gov. Bob Taft has vowed to veto the measure without the support of law enforcement. The FOP assumed a position of neutrality, but fell just short of voicing outright support.
Spokesman Mike Taylor said the organization had become "comfortable" with the bill.
The governor’s office was negotiating with the Senate and meeting with representatives of law-enforcement organizations as the rhetoric against the bill softened.
"As the police organizations become more comfortable with it, he will at least be willing to look at it," said Taft spokesman Joe Andrews. He said the governor is seeking some changes, including a provision requiring gun dealers to offer trigger locks for sale when they sell firearms.
"Even if they put all these things in, it doesn’t necessarily mean he will sign the bill," said Mr. Andrews.
The bill, which passed the House in March, already had the support of the Buckeye State Sheriffs Association. But the Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police and the Ohio Highway Patrol remain opposed.
The bill is expected to reach the Senate floor tomorrow. Time for passage grows short as House Speaker Larry Householder (R., Glenford) said he plans to bring the two-year session to a close this week.
"We’re still negotiating," said Senate President Richard Finan (R., Evendale). "We’re committed down the path now to get the bill out."
The bill would allow Ohioans who are at least 21 and have lived in the state at least 45 days to apply for permits to carry concealed handguns on their person or in their cars. They would have to undergo criminal, mental health, and domestic violence background checks, and complete firearm training.
"It was our hope that the [state] Supreme Court would clarify the constitutional status of Ohio’s law," said Sen. Jeff Jacobson (R., Brookville), committee chairman. "It has not done so at this point."
The state’s high court has before it an appeal of a lower court ruling in Cincinnati declaring Ohio’s current ban on carrying concealed handguns unconstitutional.
In part to win the FOP’s acquiescence, the Senate Judiciary on Civil Justice Committee amended the bill to:
Prohibit anyone convicted of assault on a police officer from ever obtaining a license to carry.
Increase firearm training requirements from four hours to 12 and require updated training every six years.
Add day-care centers and police stations to the list of places where guns would be prohibited, a list that includes courthouses, prisons, bars, colleges, and churches.
Eliminate the affirmative defense allowing a person caught carrying a concealed handgun without a license to avoid punishment by saying he would have qualified if he’d applied.
The compromises, however, continue to alienate the most ardent guns rights supporters.
"If they add all the provisions that’s talked about, it’s dead," said Doug Joseph, Ohio Gun Rights Coalition director.
Wednesday, December 4, 2002
FOP backing concealed-carry bill
Mandatory fingerprinting helped sway decision
By Leo Shane III
Gannett Columbus Bureau
COLUMBUS - The Ohio Fraternal Order of Police withdrew its objections to a bill allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns after a Senate committee made major revisions, including required fingerprinting of all gun permit applicants.
Mike Taylor, a spokesman for the FOP, called the changes "reasonable and responsible" for both law enforcement and Ohio citizens.
"We're concerned with the safety of our members, and these changes go a long way toward addressing those concerns," he said.
Gov. Bob Taft has threatened to veto the measure if it does not get support from a majority of law enforcement groups.
Supporters hailed the FOP decision as a boost in passing the new law. But the state Highway Patrol and the Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police still oppose the measure, a version of which was adopted by the House in March.
Joe Andrews, a spokesman for Mr. Taft, said the governor is reviewing the changes and will meet with representatives of the FOP, highway patrol and other law enforcement groups before announcing his opinion of the bill.
GOP leaders hope to put the measure before the full Senate for a vote on Thursday, and possibly on the governor's desk by next week.
Bill author Rep. Jim Aslanides, R-Coshocton, said he is optimistic that any remaining opposition by law enforcement wouldn't derail the measure. "In every state where this was passed, the chiefs of police were against it," he said. "This bill is a good bill. It has provisions within it that I hope would make it difficult for the governor not to sign."
The bill would authorize county sheriffs to license citizens who complete a gun training class and submit to a background check.
The Buckeye State Sheriffs' Association has supported the measure.
Under Senate revisions, sheriffs would use fingerprinting - not just the applicant's Social Security number - to perform background checks.
Because of privacy concerns, the bill mandates that those reports be destroyed within 20 days.
Fingerprinting was a main source of contention in the House, where some members were concerned that it treated gun-permit holders as criminals. Before the bill passed the House early this year, fingerprinting requirements were lessened.
But Mr. Aslanides said he remained confident that enough House members will still support the bill.
The Senate revisions also strengthen training requirements and ban anyone convinced of assaulting a police officer from obtaining a permit.
To a list of places where concealed weapons will be prohibited, legislators added day-care facilities, police stations and jails.
John Hohenwarter Jr., state spokesman for the National Rifle Association, called the changes an important compromise for Ohio citizens.
"Does this legislation contain everything the NRA wants? No," he said.
"Does it contain everything law enforcement want? No. But what we have here is a pretty good piece of legislation."
The House-approved bill made schools and universities - as well as churches, mental hospitals and any place selling alcohol - gun-free zones.
Lt. Gary Lewis of the state Highway Patrol said troopers oppose allowing permit holders to carry a concealed, loaded handgun while driving.
"Concealment is a big deal because it's unknown to the officers," he said.
"That changes how you approach situations."
John Gilchrist, spokesman for the Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police, said a proliferation of concealed weapons will mean more gun violence and more problems for police.
"Every time an officer stops a driver, even for a minor traffic stop, the officer will have to assume ... that a loaded gun may be on the person, under the front seat, in a purse or in the glove compartment," he said.
Ohio would be the 45th state to issue concealed-weapon permits if the bill passes, and the 33rd to require proficiency testing before receiving the permit.
Under Ohio law now, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon. There are some exceptions if it can be demonstrated that the weapon is for self-defense.
The 1st Ohio District Court of Appeals ruled the law unconstitutional in April in a Hamilton County case. The case is before the Ohio Supreme Court.
12/04/02
Sandy Theis
Plain Dealer Bureau Chief
Columbus -
Citing proposed training requirements that would be among the nation's toughest, the Fraternal Order of Police ended its long-held opposition to a bill that would allow most Ohioans to carry concealed handguns.
Supporters hope the police union's neutrality will help win the approval of Gov. Bob Taft, who has opposed past concealed weapons legislation but continues to negotiate with Senate leaders over the latest bill.
Lawmakers have been debating whether expanded gun access is safer or more dangerous for Ohioans for nearly eight years.
Supporters say that law-abiding citizens have a right to defend themselves. Opponents say that expanded gun access would put Ohioans at more risk.
The current bill was passed by the House last March but had been stalled in the Senate until Sen. Jeff Jacobson attempted to mediate a closed-door compromise that would satisfy the FOP's safety concerns and the National Rifle Association's desire to pass some sort of concealed weapons law.
"Part of legislating is often the process of allocating disappointment," said Jacobson, a Dayton-area Republican who unveiled the compromise during a committee hearing yesterday.
Jacobson, who aspires to be Senate president in two years, won kudos for his efforts from the NRA and the FOP, and he billed the compromise as "a workable, safe bill with a chance of passing."
Hearings are scheduled to continue today and tomorrow in the Senate Judiciary on Civil Justice Committee, with a possible vote by the Senate tomorrow afternoon.
The compromise calls for enhanced training requirements and other changes largely sought by the FOP. They include:
Banning fugitives from justice, and those convicted of assaulting a police officer, from getting a license to carry a concealed weapon.
Beefing up training requirements that include at least 12 hours of initial instruction, a demonstrated ability to safely handle a weapon and recertification every six years. The House-passed bill called for four hours of initial training, no competency exam and no recertification.
Requiring a criminal records check that includes fingerprinting, although the fingerprints would be destroyed within 20 days of the application being issued. The House bill had no fingerprint requirement but did allow county sheriffs who issue licenses to do fingerprinting.
Adding day-care centers to the list of places where concealed weapons would be banned. The House bill banned weapons in police agencies, school safety zones, places of worship and public or private colleges.
Although the NRA endorsed the changes, other gun supporters say the stricter requirements are too burdensome and jeopardize the bill's support in the House.
FOP lobbyist Mike Taylor said the changes would usher in some of the strictest training requirements in the nation and help insure that people who have hand guns know how to use them.
"The members of the Fraternal Order of Police, at this point, would not oppose substitute House Bill 274," Taylor testified.
In response to questions from the committee, he said he did not expect the FOP to actually support the bill - a distinction that could be key to Taft's ultimate decision on whether to veto it.
Taft has said he supports the concept of concealed carry, but would support concealed weapons legislation only if the FOP and other major law enforcement groups supported it. If the bill reaches his desk, Taft has three options: sign it, veto it or allow it to become law without his signature.
"He still has concerns about the bill," said Taft spokesman Joe Andrews. "He's meeting with the FOP and Highway Patrol to talk about their concerns."
Has Taft changed his position?
"It sounds to me like the FOP has changed, and the bill has changed," Andrews replied. "We're at least looking at it now."
To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
stheis@plaind.com, 1-800-228-8272
The sheriff will destroy the prints....... sure, I believe that.
Just like I believe background checks, etc are not sitting in a big database somewhere.
Until fingerprinting is struck from the legislation, I have no use for it.
Told my senator I want the original bill, as passed by the House, sent to Taft. Otherwise, dump it.
Don't hold your breath waiting on the Ohio Supreme Court.
A NFL team from Ohio will win the Super Bowl before the court does the right thing.
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