Conservatives Dispute Bush Portrayal of Islam as Peaceful

washington post ^ | 11/30/02

[knak]

President Bush finds himself in a rare disagreement with conservatives in his party over his efforts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that is not responsible for anti-American terrorism.

In a score of speeches since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the president has called for tolerance of Muslims, describing Islam as "a faith based upon peace and love and compassion" and a religion committed to "morality and learning and tolerance."

[Miss Marple]

No, of course I don't believe it. Why would you think I did? Are you saying that people who understand why President Bush is trying to include the moderate Muslims in our society automatically believe in the Koran? That is hogwash.

I am a Protestant Christian, who believes in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I think Muslims are in error.

However, that does not mean that I think that we need to declare a fatwah on all Muslims, which is what many on this thread seem to be hinting.

Let me quote you a few things from the Book which I believe speaks the truth:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction.
A soft answer turneth away wrath.
You ask how many times you should forgive your neighbor? Not seven times seven, but seventy times seven.
Peace on earth, to men of goodwill.
Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

It seems to me that the President is living his faith, and those who expect him to start a religious war are foolish, indeed. I don't understand why so many people bite on DANA MILBANK's efforts to stir up conservatives, but that is what you are doing. Milbank writes about one or two stories per week in which he highlights divisions within conservatives, often using unnamed sources or twisting people's words. Then a bunch of people on this forum take the bait, run with it, and go ballistic. If you wish to continue to have your chain yanked by the Washington Post, be my guest. Myself, I believe that the President has reasons for everything he does, and in time you will see the wisdom of the course he took. Meanwhile, despite the rantings of those who want to act like Roundheads, I will continue to treat others the way I myself would like to be treated, as I am commanded by God through his son Jesus Christ.

[DAnconia55]

Big letters do not necessarily mean you have won the argument.

No, you win arguments on FR by kissing Republican butt the most.

[American in Israel]

Just for the heck of it I thought I would pull one story of Islam at random from the wealth of History. I thought actual history might be a better teacher than "just listening to the propagandists and sloganists in here."

This is the story of one area in India;

Suha Bhat - the traitor

After receiving full support from Sikander, Mohd. Hamdani started forcible conversion of Hindus in Kashmir. The dream that his father could not fructify was completed by Mohd. Hamdani with the help of Sikander. The Prime Minister of Sikander, Suha Bhat, played a prominent role in this bloody campaign. Suha Bhat was a Hindu but he had adopted Islam under the request of Mohd. Hamdani and under the threat of elimination from Sikander. His name as a converted Muslim Prime Minister became Saifuddin. He assumed the leadership of the converted Muslims and in shoulder to shoulder with Sikander he got engaged fully in making Kashmir a Hinduless state. This converted wolf, out of greed for power, played a special role in demolishing all the signs and symbols of Indianness in Kashmir.

This anti-national Saifuddin demonstrated his excitement by brandishing the Islamic sword on the necks of Hindus. Those Hindus who refused conversion were tortured. The Hindu scriptures were thrown in the Dal lake. Seven maunds of sacred thread worn by those Hindus, who were killed under his instructions, were burnt. To perpetuate this terror Sikander got formed an organisation called "Sheikh-ud-Islam" with the help of Saifuddin (Suha Bhat).

A Muslim historian, Hassan, has, in his book "History of Kashmir", given an account of this barbarism of Sikander. He has written that Sikander crushed Hindus the most. An announcement was made in the city that the Hindu who would not adopt Islam was either to be killed or to be banished. As a result of it many Hindus fled from Kashmir, many accepted Islam. Many Brahmins preferred death and died. It is said that Sikander collected six maunds of sacred thread from the converted Hindus and got it burnt. Hazrat Amir Kabir has witnessed the scene himself and he suggested to Sikander that he should impose taxes on the Hindus instead of torturing them to death. All the Hindu scriptures were collected and thrown in the Dal lake and were buried under clay and stones.

It seems that these Moslems were reading a different part of the Koran than you...

My guess is they were reading this part:

Koran 8:12 Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them." Here Mohammed is giving step by step instruction on how to torture and kill Kafirs if they don't follow Islam.

Koran 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

In the above verse Prophet Mohammed is clearly instructing his followers to kill the idolaters in any brutal way possible until the idolaters submit themselves to Islam. Allah is indeed merciful !!

Koran 9:73 Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Here Mohammed is trying to justify his brutal acts. He conveniently claims divine justification for the expression of his hatred by saying Allah himself revealed to him personally that people of other religions are evil and belong in Hell. Therefore, according to Mohammed any barbaric act against the unbelievers is completely justified.

Koran 4:144 Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?

This verse clearly states that a Muslim can only befriend a Muslim. Mohammed in order to ensure that his followers will not befriend and get influenced by people of other religions, revealed this verse. This verse illustrates that if a Muslim befriends a Non-Muslim than the wrath of Allah will be on him. Therefore in Islam, people of other religions should be treated with contempt,disrespect and cruelty.

Koran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

In the above verse, Mohammed is giving detailed instruction about how to maim and torture unbelievers in Jihad. And finally when the Muslims are satisfied enough after torturing and maiming the unbelievers, they should proceed to demand ransom for the captives. All for the sake for all-merciful Allah !!

Koran 5:33-34 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that

Allah is Forgiving, merciful.

In this verse, Mohammed devises another recipe for torturing unbelievers. This particular recipe involves chopping off alternate limbs and expelling the Kafirs (people following other religions) out of the land.

Instructions to Muslims regarding Christians and Jews

Prophet Mohammed has reserved special position for certain sects of Unbelievers in his so called "Holy Book" Koran. Those unbelievers are none other than followers of Christianity and Judaism. I have selected few verses from Koran to display what Muslims are taught and instructed as far as treating Christians and Jews is concerned.

Koran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

In this verse Prophet Mohammed is clearly instructing his followers never to befriend a Christian or a Jew. Because if they take a Christian or a Jew as a friend, they will commit a wrong deed and Allah's wrath will be on them.

Koran 5:57 Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pastime... Here "those who were given the Book before you" refers to Christians and Jews. Once again Mohammed is warning Muslims of all time never to befriend a Christian or a Jew.

Koran 5:64The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!... In the above verse Prophet Mohammed is showing his deep respect for the Jews.

Koran 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.

Here 'People of the Book' refers to Christians and Jews. The 'Religion Of Truth' refers to Islam. So in the above verse Prophet Mohammed is instructing Muslims to fight and torture Christians and Jews (who do not believe in Islamic version of God) until they pay tax to Muslims for their existence. Muslims are also strictly instructed to make the Christians and Jews feel 'subdued'. Allah is truly benign !!!

Koran 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth.

Here Prophet Mohammed is wishing that Allah's curse be on Jews and Christians. And what did the Christians and Jews do for such special favour from Allah ? All they did is that out of respect and love, they called their Prophets 'son of God'.

All this is a 5 minute cut and paste. Like I said, read on, there is much to learn from the manual of those who have declared "holy" war on us.

[DAnconia55]

Miss Marple is worried about thousands of Muslims in the inner-cities rising up and torching the cities.

Good. Makes them easier to shoot.

[American in Israel]

Luis, find a church in Saudi Arabia or a synagog. They once had thriving cultures there, they have All been wiped out. Religious Genocide. Ethnic cleansing. Mass Murder. The history of Islam...

[FreedomPoster]

Luiz and Jimmy would rather tell us about "representative" peaceful, friendly Muslims, and ignore the reality of what Islam really is and does in the world.

I pinged Luis and Jimmy to my number 51 on this thread, and have heard nothing but crickets chirping regarding responses to that.

If Muslims want to prove themselves as worthy of interaction with the modern civilized world, they need to be taking care of their own problems (Al Queda and other terrorists), and not attacking non-Islamics all over the globe (Nigeria, Sudan, Phillipines, Indonesia, . . . .). Simply minding their own business and making a few self-serving "Islamic radicals are bad" statements to mollify Westerners / the Western media is no longer enough.

[American in Israel]

Miss marple, you maybe a protestant, and I admire your idea of a soft word turning aside wrath, but that scripture is spoken in context of dealing with your friends, not people who have come to kill you. When the Soldier asked Jesus what must I do, Jesus said Be a good soldier, do not steal.. He did not say lay aside your sword in the face of the enemy. You have to keep in mind that Sept 11 was a cowardly attack against civilians, worse than that done on Pearl Harbor against our military.

You may think it childish that I advocate destroying Mecca, but I believe because we have not, many American citys will be destroyed in the future. We have made a bed, and lain with our enemies. Indeed the scriptures of the destruction of Babylon are rather fitting in the description of the oil whores that control our government.

When we sell a Palestinian State, and make allies with the Saudi's, when we are willing to listen to those who would scratch our ears as they slaughter our people and bomb Christian Nations to help spread the threat of Islam we are not worthy of the Nation that we have subverted to the Almighty Dollar from the gift of the Almighty God.

But then, keep to a sunday school understanding of the scriptures and stay out of the prophets, for what you will find there is not pg, or pc.

[FreedomPoster]

Oops, that's #55; it links to the right place.

[Drew68]

You are loathsome. You admire Hitler, who tried to exterminate an entire race, and call for a Cristallnacht here.

Where in my post (removed at your urging I have no doubt) did I claim to admire Hitler? Nowhere. I merely expressed anticipation (in an over-the-top fashion, to be sure) of ridding the country of followers of Islam --a belief system that I personally find as repugnant and un-American as Nazism.

I have no love for mohammedans. Germany finally turned its back on Nazism as a failed ideology. They denounced it and were allowed to join the civillized world. Those who currently practice Islam must do the same.

I'm going to do you the favor of reporting your post to the FBI, who WILL get around to visiting you, just to have a talk.

Oh fer cryin' out loud! Did it go something like this: "Hi Mr. G-Man. My name is Chancellor Palpatine. There is this person on Free Republic named Drew68 who doesn't love muslims. You'd better go arrest him!"

I guess I better get dressed and brush my teeth since the feds are most certainly on their way over to "have a little talk" with me.

[American in Israel]

Good and to the point, I excerpted a bit here:

Thus, what is most frightening is not that there are Muslim terrorists, but by how little criticism of Islamic terror emanates from normative Islamic groups. While some Muslim groups have condemned individual acts of Islamic terror such as 9-11, not one significant Muslim group in the world, including here in free America, has condemned Islamic terror generally. And the leaders of Al-Azhar University, the most prestigious institution of Islamic learning, have actually morally and religiously come out in support of Islamic suicide terror against Israelis.

So the fact that the majority of those living in the Islamic countries are good people is of no consequence. Unless they do something to condemn and to isolate the Muslim totalitarians and terrorists in their midst, history will judge them as it has all the good Germans during the Holocaust.

[TLBSHOW]

The history of Islam


Another member of the Pentagon advisory board, Eliot Cohen of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, wrote an article on the Wall Street Journal editorial page arguing that the enemy of the United States enemy is not terrorism "but militant Islam." "The enemy has an ideology, and an hour spent surfing the Web will give the average citizen at least the kind of insights that he or she might have found during World Wars II and III by reading 'Mein Kampf' or the writings of Lenin, Stalin or Mao."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55273-2002Nov29.html

[Jael]

Actual Quotes from the Koran

The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims:

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

[Jael]

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

[Arioch7]

I to have quite a few muslim friends, so what?

Liberals can bash Christianity with unrelenting hatred and that is just fine but one is not supposed to say anything negative about Islam?

As the man said, not all Germans were bad people either but that did not mean that we should have rolled over for the Nazis.

What both of you should do is go visit one of our friendly Islamic allies and see how you like it. I spent all of 20 Minutes in Saudi Arabia and then I decided to just sit that particular country out.

It is my belief that IF they had a majority in this country, they would attempt to impose Sharia. If you doubt me, look at one of the only secular muslim nations which is Turkey and look at what they have to do to stop Islam from taking it over.

I dont like Theocratic Dictatorships. If the vast majority of muslims are so benevolent, why do they let thier leaders carry on in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, etc.

A Pakistani friend of mine was going to visit Pakistan and I asked her Mother if she was going to go as well. Her response "What are you crazy!?!"

I think she summed it up pretty good. :D

[Jhoffa_]

Yes, you are given the choice between Islam or death. It is a religion of Choice! (You need to read a bit more, the Koran is very self-contradicting)

First, thanks for your polite reply, I do appreciate it and your demeanor certainly distinguishes your posts on this thread.

Second, you may well be right. I said I am no scholar and the disposition of Islam as a whole is irrelevant to my point. I just don't see how harming my maintenance man would serve society or God himself.

Allot of blacks commit crimes, percentage wise they are just a high crime group. But it wouldn't serve anyone to persecute them as a whole based on this stereotype. I don't want anyone to go persecute Alan Keyes just because Blacks in general are a high crime group. No one would be served there.

Also, I keep thinking back to 9/11 and what would have happened if it had been McVeigh types who pulled it off. Or an even more dismal prospect, McVeigh types during the Clinton years.

If that were the case we would be the ones in the fire , I wouldn't like that at all and it frightens me to think about having to live under the rules some people would create for Islam or Arabs in general.

[Jhoffa_]

Luiz and Jimmy would rather tell us about "representative" peaceful, friendly Muslims, and ignore the reality of what Islam really is and does in the world.

No, you are missing the point. (Or just being obtuse)

I won't presume to speak for Luis, but I don't want:

1) People abusing my maintenance man for things he didn't do and doesn't agree with.

2) To hand Osama and the diaper head brigade a few billion warriors.

There are many reasons why a war on "Islam" outright is a mistake. They range from a complete lack of moral justification to political concerns to tactical errors.

Any one of these is enough to make such a war unenviable.

Just pick one.

[Jhoffa_]

Liberals can bash Christianity with unrelenting hatred and that is just fine but one is not supposed to say anything negative about Islam?

Logic problem: They shouldn't be "bashing" Christians either. One has nothing to do with the other, despite your effort to link them.

As the man said, not all Germans were bad people either but that did not mean that we should have rolled over for the Nazis.

More faulty logic: Did we go to war with the Germans race or with Nazi Germany as our enemy?

Also, speaking of the Nazi's. Hitler went to "war" with Jews as a race of people. Be careful, because that's akin to what I see advocated here.

King Herod did something similar.

[FreedomPoster]

>>I just don't see how harming my maintenance man would serve society or God himself.

Perhaps I need to re-read the thread more closely, for I have missed where this has been advocated. Recognizing that the ideology he is following, fortunately imperfectly (as arguably, those who are following it more closely are out attacking infidels), is dangerous, is very different from harming your peaceful maintenance man.

>>Allot of blacks commit crimes, percentage wise they are just a high crime group. But it wouldn't serve anyone to persecute them as a whole based on this stereotype.

But the fact that both of these statements are true doesn't mean that the first one shouldn't be discussed. Practically, however, if you try to rationally discuss the implications of the first, you are immediately branded a racist, and all rational discussion ends.

Until we are willing to recognize that the ideology and practice of Islam is the problem, we are dancing around the true problem, and therefore failing to address it.