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A Green Light to Spy on Americans? Nonsense!
City Journal ^ | Nov 25, 2002 | Heather Mac Donald

Posted on 11/26/2002 5:59:57 AM PST by wingnuts'nbolts

Don't believe the mainstream press's account of the latest court decision on intelligence sharing.

Maybe it's post-election payback. Or maybe just rank ignorance. Whatever the cause, the press's flagrant distortion of a recent court decision on the intelligence sharing represents an escalation of the elite's war on the war on terror.

(Excerpt) Read more at city-journal.org ...


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: medialies
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To: dirtboy
As far as protection, the best and only real protection is eternal vigilence over what the government is doing. It killed TIPS, it will probably either curtain or kill TIA, and it killed the National ID card. You might not see those as positives. I do.

So why are you niggling about the Slimes, which can barely get the avergae Republican's name right, about some lines in a law as thick as a phone book when the substance of their argument - that the law invites abuse - is basically correct, especially in light of the government track record and the truthfulness of the people implementing the law?

61 posted on 11/26/2002 8:29:16 AM PST by eno_
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To: American For Life
"Both continue to allow terrorism to flow freely in and out of the U.S. "

It is difficult for me to believe that you believe such an absurd statement. If you do, what evidence do you have to support your belief ? Evidence, not suspicion or perception. Indisputable evidence, hard facts not heresay.

62 posted on 11/26/2002 8:29:20 AM PST by Darlin'
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To: eno_
Tell us again, apologists

Go suck eggs, jerk. I am not apologizing for anything. I simply prefer to deal with the truth, whereas you seem to think that figuring out the truth is somehow supporting the government. So if the government lies, it is wrong, but folks that re-enforce YOUR beliefs lie, it is no big deal? That's a crock.

63 posted on 11/26/2002 8:30:41 AM PST by dirtboy
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Comment #64 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
So why are you niggling about the Slimes,

Once again, it's telling that you consider getting to the truth "niggling"

which can barely get the avergae Republican's name right, about some lines in a law as thick as a phone book

Once again, I've read most of that law. Have you? You didn't answer my question the first time.

when the substance of their argument - that the law invites abuse - is basically correct, especially in light of the government track record and the truthfulness of the people implementing the law?

There were plenty of good editorials around the country that made a case against TIA and Poindexter without lying that the HSA authorized TIA and that TIA was a done deal with the passage of HSA. Once again, why do you find the truth so problematic?

65 posted on 11/26/2002 8:33:39 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: steve-b
As I pointed out in my previous message, this is more or less equivalent to suggesting that if I don't have access to heavy machinery then the real solution is to work out until I'm strong enough to bend steel in my bare hands.

That's a cop-out. It doesnt' take that long to read HSA - most of it, the administrative details, can be skimmed - it's hard to find tyranny in a section that raises discretionary spending limites for a certain level of manager from $7,500 to $10,000, or a section that discusses voluntary severance pay.

66 posted on 11/26/2002 8:35:17 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: American For Life
Personally, I don't care whether they like me or not. I lived in Berlin during the Cold War, and I am quite certain most of the Germans didn't like me.

What I do care about is that it not appear that the moderate Muslims feel like their interests would be better served by throwing in with bin Laden. Period. We need bases in those countries I mentioned, and if we push too far in the anti-Islam rhetoric, the populations of those countries will demand our removal.

This is not a theological position I am taking; it is one that is strategic. That is all.

67 posted on 11/26/2002 8:36:29 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: eno_
"The government has little or no credibility with me, or many other Freepers, to ask for more powers."

As we discovered with the Clintons, whether a law was in place to restrain or to enable their power made little difference. They did what they wanted, citing authority as they needed, or invoking the absence of same ("No controlling legal authority"). They ran rampant over our institutions.

It's a question of trust. It's up to the American people to elect public officials who can be trusted with the power of office. The Clintons were a stunning demonstration of what happens when we elect the untrustworthy.

We now have an administration that, instead of arrogating powers, asks for them via the appropriate legislative process. There is a difference.

If you distrust Bush like you distrusted Clinton, you're not making that distinction.

68 posted on 11/26/2002 8:36:57 AM PST by okie01
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To: dirtboy
Certain elements in the conservative and libertarian media will always not only assume the worst

I cites concrete reasons to assume the worst:

1. Poindexter and Ridge are liars.

2. The government has a track record of abuse and killing citizens (e.g. Waco) that, while it can't beat Al Quaida, is better than your average Hamas bus bombing.

3. The people that committed those atrocities still walk free. Israel at least hunts down and kills Hamas and other killers.

4. The government appears to be too lazy to work on alternatives to spying on us: The borders are still sieve-like, etc.

So, I have to ask: Isn't it perfectly rational to assume the worst? Isn't trusting Tom Ridge bascially either the product of ignorance, or, if an informed person trusts him, psychotic behavior?

69 posted on 11/26/2002 8:37:04 AM PST by eno_
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
So, I have to ask: Isn't it perfectly rational to assume the worst? Isn't trusting Tom Ridge bascially either the product of ignorance, or, if an informed person trusts him, psychotic behavior?

Sorry, but pointing out that Ridge and Poindexter are liars does not in turn justify that the Times lied and other folks ran with the lie without verifying it. I find your methods here rather strange.

71 posted on 11/26/2002 8:38:37 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: okie01
If you distrust Bush like you distrusted Clinton, you're not making that distinction.

A good point! I do, in fact, have a predisposition to trust Bush. However, it would be much much easier to trust Bush if he didn't appoint a liar to be Secy. of HSA, didn't exhume John Poindexter to riffle through my Amex receipts, and did out the Elian raiders, or arrange to have Horiuchi roped down into a cluster***k in some third world hell hole so he could die a hero, or do SOMETHING - ANYTHING - to add credibility to the process of creating the HSA. Like fire whatsherface at INS. Anything! I'm easy!

72 posted on 11/26/2002 8:42:17 AM PST by eno_
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To: American For Life
Yes, of course, you may unless you intend to point out legislation enacted during times of war.
73 posted on 11/26/2002 8:47:29 AM PST by Darlin'
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Comment #74 Removed by Moderator

To: American For Life
I don't live in a Muslim country. More importantly, I do not WISH to live in one, so it is vital that the war be won.

Yes I am aware of both the denial of the bases and the movement of the missiles. That is why it is important that we have Qatar!! If we officially attack Islam, Qatar would also throw us out!!

You have made my point!

75 posted on 11/26/2002 8:50:33 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: eno_
"...or do SOMETHING - ANYTHING - to add credibility to the process of creating the HSA. Like fire whatsherface at INS."

Getting legislative approval for the reorganization and its rules of employment was only the first step. Let's see what happens next.

76 posted on 11/26/2002 8:57:02 AM PST by okie01
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To: Darlin'
Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "

Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus in 1861 and 62. It was restored by an act of Congress in 1866. The Writ was brought because of the 'copperheads', a democratic anti war group. Lincoln believed that temporarily violating the Constitution would save it as a whole. The copperheads were vehemently opposed to this. Martial Law was enacted at that time which entailed Supreme Court cases. I'm not a history buff and I hope one of your Freepers can elaborate on this as I think it pertains to today. We are damned if we agree and damned if we don't so must live with the lesser of two evils. If temporary, I can live with it, but what is temporary in politics these days?

77 posted on 11/26/2002 10:29:08 AM PST by Jaidyn
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To: Jaidyn
"I'm not a history buff and I hope one of your Freepers can elaborate on this as I think it pertains to today. We are damned if we agree and damned if we don't so must live with the lesser of two evils. If temporary, I can live with it, but what is temporary in politics these days? "

You might even go so far as to say, we are damned if we do and doomed if we do not.

Yes, suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus was one piece of legislation I had in mind when I made that post. Under the enforcement of that "temporary" legislation it is estimated that between 13,000 to 14,000 people were detained. Chief Justice Taney ruled the suspension unconstitutional but Lincoln just ignored him. I have a list of similar war time acts saved somewhere... lemme see if I can find it. :)

78 posted on 11/26/2002 10:45:16 AM PST by Darlin'
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To: wingnuts'nbolts
If our government had the courage to face reality and name our enemy, I'd feel greatly reassured.

But when they continue the "Islam means peace" mantra, while setting up an apparatus to spy on ALL Americans, it tells me that something more is afoot.

79 posted on 11/26/2002 10:51:36 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: steve-b
Your 54 is dead on the target.
80 posted on 11/26/2002 10:53:35 AM PST by Travis McGee
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