[Kevin Curry]

Basically what is being said here by detractors in this thread is that people can not survive without large government managing and "paying" for the people's daily needs.

That isn't what's being said at all. What we're saying (or at least what I'm saying) is that "free state" libertarians don't have a clue about how to run an effective government--even a small government. They have a visceral hatred of government of any size, but blind hatred of government is thin gruel on which sustain a healthy, prosperous community.

The founding fathers rejected this cramped libertarian worldview when they trash-canned the weak and ineffective Articles of Confederation and crafted the more vigorous and muscular Constitution.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

They have a visceral hatred of government of any size, but blind hatred of government is thin gruel on which sustain a healthy, prosperous community.

Applause and cheers. Thank you.

They want the infrastructure that the prosperous society leaves behind, yet are incapable of creating it themselves. Their models won't work, because it fractures.

Think about the old west. When those communities start, they are perfect libertarian microcosms. Wild, wooly, lawless - places where decent people were concerned for their lives (actually, ghetto areas underserved by police are like this as well). As time would go on, things would coalesce, first with a local strongman, later the society would stabilize with law. Secure property, and reasonable public order followed.

[u-89]

It seems, and perhaps we all can agree is that the "muscular Constitution" of which you speak is flexing its muscles too much. I think of the wieght lifting rooms in prisons. Enemies of society are incarcerated and during that time they bulk up and when they are released they are an even greater menace. Our government grows ever stronger and I do not believe that it will be shackled or sized down through either party at the federal level. Right here on FR there has been countless articles posted since the GOP took over congress on how the Pubs have spent more money than requested in proposed budgets. GOP chairmen have even taken to harsh punishments of rougue conservative congressmen who would tried to halt this profligate waste. Nor have they reigned in or punished wrong doing in various federal agencies of which they have oversight. Observation of human nature and common sense tells us that career pols will only seek to increase their power and influence. Term limits were a great idea when Dems were in control, how many Pubs favor them now? personaly I don't like term limits on the basis of liberty so the only way to control career pols would be to kill the benefit packages and retirement plans. What chance for passing a bill like that would we have? Recently I heard Bob Dornan on TV say that having served so long with these people on the hill that 90% wouldn't get anywhere near 150,000 a year in the private sector.

In short I am saying that the only hope for a limited governemnt would be at a state level. In theory there are more than enough conservatives, independents, libertarians and non party members in this country who could make a Free State work. From reading other threads I get the impression that you strongly dislike all things libertarian but I think that you paint with too broad a brush and unkind stereotypes drawn from a few outrageous examples (BTW, I am not a member of the LP, still a registered pub, for primary voting influence if nothing else). Using the half full/half empty glass analogy it seems that we are opposite on two issues. The chances of restoring liberty through the GOP on a federal level and the chances of the Free State way. I am pessimistic one way and optomistic the other and you seem to have the reverse opinons in each instance. No matter. It makes for interesting discussion.

[exodus]

To: u-89
"...The founding fathers rejected this cramped libertarian worldview when they trash-canned the weak and ineffective Articles of Confederation and crafted the more vigorous and muscular Constitution."
# 79 by Kevin Curry
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The Founding Fathers didn't abandon their libertarian ideas when they wrote the Constitution, Kevin Curry.

The Constitution recognizes our rights, prohibits government from infringing on those rights, recognizes that rights don't come from government, and says that government cannot take powers not granted by the people.

That doesn't sound like anything a Republican or Democrat would agree with, does it? It is, however, something a libertarian could offer whole-hearted support to.