Libertarianism III: It's All About Me and My Needs

Sand in the Gears ^ | 11/15/02 | Tony Woodlief

[hscott]

"A libertarian is someone who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty."

That is incorrect. Your desciption is better fitted to an anarchist, not a libertarian. Libertarians believe in the justice system although certain acts that are now crimes would be legal in a libertarian country.

Also it should be made clear that "liberty" for a libertarian refers only to government coercion. What happens in civil society is not the issue.

What interests me the most about the article is the foreign policy aspect. Libertarian foreign policy (if there is one) fails because it rests on an unrealistic view of the world. I don't want the US to be the world's policeman. Yet we must be, first because no one else can do it and second because our national interest requires it.

[corkoman]

I would bet everything I own( not too much right now 21 year old college student) that most libertarians aren't potheads and that most potheads aren't libertarians.

Me too - all these rascally totalitarians dont care for issues that focus on liberty - all they see is the smoke. Telling. Go WOD! Whoo hoo lets blow a few more billion, hell it grows on trees.

[hscott]

Yes, I thought so. Best blog I have found. I was really excited. As an aside if you have,t explored blogs you are missing out. Many of them are miles ahead of newspaper columnists. Try GlennFrazier.com.

[Reagan Man]

You're entitled to your opinion, however, according to the online Merriam Webster dictionary, the definition of "libertarian" is as follows:

>>> a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty especially of thought and action <<<

I have nothing against an individual choosing to think any thought they like, or writing down impractical ideas for others to read, but as a law and order conservative, I'm against "absolute and unrestricted" action in our civilized and law abiding society. America has a free and open society, but that doesn't translate into an anything goes approach, which is exactly what libertarianism is all about.

[hscott]

Maybe but dictionary.com defines "libertarian' as

"One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state."

So hey what do we do when dictionaries don't agree? Anyway I would say that a better way to determine what the word means is to ask libertarians, "What does a libertarian believe?"

It seems to me that you are attacking libertarians on the basis of dictionary definitions - a bad idea I think. I have no problem with attacking libertarians since I am also doing that but you should attack on the basis of what they actually believe.

From my experience the equating of "libertarian" with "libertine" is baseless and shameful. If anything libertarians tend to be rather uptight controlled intellectual chaps, not wild dopers - but maybe that's just me.

[Dane]

If anything libertarians tend to be rather uptight controlled intellectual chaps

If anything, my experience with Libertarians on FR is that they are uncontrolled hedonists with a leftist agenda.

not wild dopers - but maybe that's just me

IMO, by reading your responses, that's just you, and not the Libertarian, anarchist, and America hating thugs that pervade the majority of the Libertarian(i.e drugs, pornography "uber alles") threads posted by "Libertarians".

[Hank Kerchief]

...as a law and order conservative, I'm against "absolute and unrestricted" action in our civilized and law abiding society. America has a free and open society, but that doesn't translate into an anything goes approach, which is exactly what libertarianism is all about.

There is less "order" and less freedom in America than at any other time in our history. We now have a president putting in place measures designed to remove more of our freedoms and trample on the Bill of Rights.

What do you think about the government owning the largest share of land in the country and grabbing as much more as it can? What do you think your president will do about this (Land Grab Act Comes Back) for example?

And what do you think your president will do about gun rights? I'll tell you. When he's done, there will be no gun rights. Just watch what he does about this (BATF Moves to Block Importation of 'Obsolete' US Military Guns) for example.

I am not a libertarian, but at least they are for liberty, and that is the thing this country was founded for. For the few of us who still believe it is, "give me liberty or give me death," the demise of this country is apparently at hand. Most people do not care for freedom, most people are terrified of liberty, of actually being responsible for their own lives. They want "security," a "big brother," a "safety net," and they don't care how many people have to subjugated or repressed to get it.

Hank

[Reagan Man]

>>>"One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state."

That definition isn't any different then the one found in Merriam Webster. A good argument can be made, that maximizing individual rights is the same as upholding the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty.

>>>It seems to me that you are attacking libertarians on the basis of dictionary definitions...

Not at all. My past exchanges with libertarians here on FR, prove conclusively, that I have very real differences with libertarians that go far beyond mere dictionary definitions. But dictionaries do offer accepted standards and basic interpretations for words, that we all use in our daily communications. In this specific case, definitions are being used for reasons of political comparison. I view those ideas found in the libertarian philosophy, much different when compared to the political agenda of the conservative movement.

>>>If anything libertarians tend to be rather uptight controlled intellectual chaps, not wild dopers...

As applied to libertarians in general, I would have to disagree with you. I see nothing intellectual about supporting drug legalization, or spreading STD's through the legalization of prostitution. Those are just two differences conservatives have with libertarians.

[Sparta]

I lean Libertarian, actually. (I was joking about the stoned remark) The Libertarian Party has no chance in hell as long as it emphasizes drugs and prostitution. As for making sure we have a free country, we to elect more conservative politicians than the RINOs we largely elect. Imagine the consequences if Gore was elected President. He would've never cut taxes, our second amendment would be in serious jeopardy, and there would be less private property rights. If Harry Browne was elected President, we would all pray facing Mecca and every church would be a mosque.

[Sparta]

spreading STD's through the legalization of prostitution

Actually, you can reduce STD's by regulating prostitution.(Whores have to go in for a checkup every week and have to use protection.)

[hove]

Hey Republicans! Here's a great idea. Let's keep attacking libertarians until the next election cycle. After all, they are far worse than democrats...right? And they deserve the hate. And the libertarians will have a real score to settle and purposely run candidates to suck votes away from mostly republican candidates. After all, far more libertarians are converted republicans than democrats. And then they'll spoil elections for republican candidates. You know....like what happened in Oregon's governers race. C'mon republicans....you show those rascally libertarians. Show everybody how smart you are. Just keep on dissing those libertarians!

Hey....stop that snickering you democrats! Don't forget...Nader and the greens are still out there.

[Reagan Man]

>>>There is less "order" and less freedom in America than at any other time in our history.

I totally disagree with you.

I do not support land grabs by the federal government and neither does President Bush. I strongly support the 2nd Amendment right for Americans to keep and bear arms, and so does President Bush.

>>>I am not a libertarian, but at least they are for liberty, and that is the thing this country was founded for.

Its true. Many libertarians favor returning America to the days of 1790, when the vast majority of folks were uneducated, poor and didn't live past 40 years old. I don't support that type of life. While life may not be perfect in the 21st century, its far better then at any time in American history. Things may not be perfect in todays world, but when has life ever been perfect?

[Reagan Man]

Regulate prostitution? Hahahahahahaha

This ain't no "eurosocialist state" we're talking about here. This is the USA! Aside from the immoral nature of prostitution, I guarantee you, the legalization of prostitution would see skyrocketing increases in STD's, from sea to shining sea.

[driftless]

I'm a Republican who voted for a Libertarian for governor in Wisconsin because the standing Rep. Gov Scott McCallum was to busy smearing his opponent rather than enunciating conservative principles. I believe in a number of what could be considered Libertarian tenets, but some of their rhetoric is really wacky. I don't know how many anti-Lincoln articles I've read by persons who have identified themselves as Libertarians. I would dearly love to go back in time and see how these wonderful protectors of liberty would have felt to have been slaves. It's easy to proclaim states rights when you are not the one being chained, whipped, or sold down the river.

[Tokhtamish]

The fundamental problem, as this article so wisely pointed out, is that a minimalist state requires a maximalist culture. Small government can function in a culture where people live in fear of 'what the neighbors will say'. And in a society where social welfare systems were informal, family, friends, neighbors, church, falling afoul of group norms had real socioeconomic consequences. That means also religion and a decidedly anti-individualistic cultural uniformity.

Libertarian ideas on national defense tend to be flatly idiotic, a naive assumption that an isolationist America would be so loved by everyone that it would have no enemies. People who don't understand that to have something that someone else covets is to have an enemy are idiots. They babble about militias and guerrilla warfare, cheerfully assuming that 'freedom' will make amateurs a match for trained professionalism. They babble about Vietnam as if the Viet Cong were a libertarian militia, as if they did not pay a horrendous price in casualties in the face of American firepower. They understand nothing about suffering or sacrifice (and self-sacrifice is the antithesis of libertarianism) or duty. They don't understand that the values of a good soldier are antithetical to the anarchic individualism of libertarianism. They don't understand that a militia can only work in a culture so tight and cohesive that shirking means social suicide.

Libertarianism smells of the politics of the gated community. A world where the well off can live behind walls with private police, private courts, private sanitation, private schools, private everything and to hell with anyone else.

[Copernicus]

This entire essay employs what is known as the "strawman" technique. Define the problem in terms of your own construction and then refute it or fix it with your solution.

With the exception of the first paragraph there are no attributed quotes or sources for any of the writer's allegations.

Even the most biased media hack goes to some trouble provide credible quotes and sources to back up his/her position even if they have to lie. ( True story: AP recently retracted a string of published news items because the writer's sources couldn't be found or didn't exist. I will locate a link if you are interested.)

Here is one example:

I have heard libertarian thinkers much smarter than me give brilliant, sophisticated, world-wise discourses on libertarian domestic policy, only to sound like naive sophomores when the talk turns to foreign affairs.

What Libertarian thinkers? Where? When? This is nothing more than an unsubstantiated gratuitous allegation used to buttress a contention the Libertarians don't understand Foreign Policy.

Without attribution it is meaningless.

Any Conservatives or Republicans who rely on these tactics to persuade and inform are indistinguishable from their left wing liberal counterparts.

Best regards,

[Le-Roy]

I guarantee you, the legalization of prostitution would see skyrocketing increases in STD's, from sea to shining sea.

   True to form...argument based on emotion instead of reason.

   Tell me...what are the per capita rates of STDs in Nevada, as compared to the rest of the country?

[Reagan Man]

>>>True to form...argument based on emotion instead of reason.

What emotion would that be?

It's just like legalizing drugs. If you don't think drug use would skyrocket with legalization, you're ignorant about what comprises human nature.

[ThinkDifferent]

If anything, my experience with Libertarians on FR is that they are uncontrolled hedonists with a leftist agenda

Yeah, those pesky leftists, running around trying to abolish the income tax and eliminate bloated government programs. What do they think this is, a free country?

[ThinkDifferent]

Aside from the immoral nature of prostitution, I guarantee you, the legalization of prostitution would see skyrocketing increases in STD's

Like in Nevada? Oh wait, it doesn't happen there because the legal prostitutes are regularly tested. Try again.