Posted on 11/16/2002 6:07:00 PM PST by FormerLurker
If you go back to post 374, you'll see that ground water has been seen containing as much as 100 ppm of fluoride. So obviously, that isn't calcium fluoride, as its maximum solubility is 16 ppm.
As far as blood plasma levels, hmmm, I might want to look into that.
Well, first off, what do you think happens when there is a dental accident where a child swallows the fluoride treatment? Why do you think he or she gets ill and/or dies? Is it because there was only a 16 ppm level of fluoride in the bloodstream? Or do you think it may be just a bit higher?
When there are accidental discharges of fluoride in a resevoir, or when ground water leeches into the water system, I wonder what sort of concentration of fluoride we'd see there.
Say somebody decides to have a can of tuna with a salad for lunch. With lunch, the person drinks a nice big glass of fluoridated water, or perhaps a can of coke. After lunch, perhaps a cup of coffee made with fluoridated water, or perhaps tea which ITSELF contains fluoride. Afterwards, that person brushes their teeth with a fluoride toothpaste, swallows some of it then gargles with a fluoride mouthwash. I wonder how high of a concentration they'd have in their stomach. And I wonder what the short term level of fluoride would be in their blood stream before being ABSORBED or excreted.
In other words, there's lot's of ways to get MORE than the 1 ppm figure you continously quote.
AND, it may just be that those already elevated levels of fluoride are being accumulated in cells, themselves containing water. We'll get to that later though...
Are you on a timeclock Tom?
Ever hear of ion channels?
You're right, negative ions can't get into a cell. So let's drop that idea. BUT, let's look at neurons. They utilize potassium in their cell function, and potassium ions ARE positive. As such, if there's any fluoride in the blood stream, those negative fluoride ions bond with the potassium and rob the neuron of it's necessary potassium ion. That is how fluoride causes neurological damage.
I haven't seen you post anything but ad hominem comments. Have anything else to say?
Obviously I was wrong about that. My mistake...
You mean to tell me that the absoulte ONLY naturally occurring fluoride compound is calcium fluoride? And under all circumstances (heat, ph, etc.) the solubility is the same?
Well, first off, what do you think happens when there is a dental accident where a child swallows the fluoride treatment? Why do you think he or she gets ill and/or dies? Is it because there was only a 16 ppm level of fluoride in the bloodstream? Or do you think it may be just a bit higher?
When has a child died from a fluoride treatment?
You're REALLY reaching now.
WAIT! I changed my mind, you're right. Fluoridated toothpastes, rinses, and treatments are WAY too dangerous to have around. I think we need to stick with the much lower fluoride concentrations in fluoridated water.
No, I'm saying that calcium fluoride is not what reached 100 ppm, as it can only reach 16 ppm solubility. The temperture given for the 16 ppm value is 16 degrees Celcius, which is about 61 degres Fahrenheit. That is about right for ground water. As far as the ph, unless the water was very acidic or caustic, I doubt there'd be a significant difference in the solubility.
When has a child died from a fluoride treatment?
$750,000 Given In Child's Death In Fluoride Case. - Boy, 3, Was in City Clinic for Routine Cleaning
WAIT! I changed my mind, you're right. Fluoridated toothpastes, rinses, and treatments are WAY too dangerous to have around. I think we need to stick with the much lower fluoride concentrations in fluoridated water.
Fluoride blamed in dialysis deaths
Deaths or poisonings linked to fluoridation or fluoride products
And those pesky fluoride ions wreak all sorts of other havoc when they rob positive ions from electrolytes...
Oops, the temperature given for the 16 ppm maximum solubility should have been 18 degrees Celcius, not 16. So 18 degrees Celcius equates to 64.4 degrees Fahrenheit. It's STILL about right for the temperature of ground water.
So with billions of fluoride treatments every years, you had to go back to 1974 to find something. 45 cubic centimeters!! That is obviously a case of negligence,not product safety.
But why not look at the safety of water fluoridation?
In a study in the British Dental Journal, they found that, since 1970, there have been over 3700 studies worldwide on the safety and efficacy of fluoride ( Easley MW. Br Dent J. 1995;178(2):72-75.).
Er, since I've put up with all of your cutting and pasting, you'll have to do the same. Here's a small portion of those studies:
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Note: Not all numbers are present, some not relevant were edited out.
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184. Erickson JD, Oakley GP Jr., Flynt JW Jr., Hay S. Water fluoridation and congenital malformations: no association. J Am Dent Assoc 1976;93:981-4.
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186. Erickson JD. Down syndrome, water fluoridation and maternal age. Teratol 1980;21:177-80.
187. Mullenix PJ, Denbesten PK, Schunior A, Kernan WJ. Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats. Neurotoxicol Teratol 1995;17(2):169-77.
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For one, I question your figure of "billions of fluoride treatments every years(sic)". I doubt it is anything close to that. In any event, that is not the issue. Your portrayal of the death of a little 3-year old boy, who's parents had to watch him die a horrible death, as a "45 cubic centimeter" problem, is a callous attempt to trivialize this very real danger. I doubt this little boy's parents saw this as a "45 cubic centimeter" problem.
Fluoride is a POISON. The American Dental Association has gone to great lengths to convince the American public and the rest of the world that fluoride is as safe as sugar, in fact, even more so than sugar.
It is quite obvious that fluoride ISN'T safe at ALL. The idea of putting a highly toxic, knowingly lethal dose of a substance in ANYONE'S mouth is beyond comprehension. It would be unethical even if it were part of a life saving procedure, let alone a DENTAL procedure. And for the ADA to use their junk science to convince people to bring their little boy's and girl's to the dentist to have this procedure done is outright madness.
A "probably toxic dose" (PTD), where immediate medical intervention is warranted, is given as 5mg fluoride for every kilogram of body weight. It is also stated in the reference that the fatal dose of fluoride is from 32 to 64 mg fluoride/kg. For the lethal dose, we'll take an average of 48 mg F/kg.
Consider the case of a 30 pound child, the average weight for a 3 year old boy.
Weight in kilograms
Child: 50 lbs. = 13.6 kg
PTD (Probably Toxic Dose)
Child: 5mg * 13.6 = 68 mg
"Known" lethal dose
Child: 48 * 13.6 = 653 mg
Fluoride treatments are labled as containing up to 22,600 ppm:
However, if you take a look at the Colgate Duraphat mentioned in the above link, you'll see that it has 50 mg of sodium fluoride, although they state a fluoride availablity of 22.6 mg, thus the 22,600 ppm figure. We know that sodium fluoride can reach 42,200 ppm in water, which is what saliva and stomach juices chiefly consists of. So IF the patient swallows the product, MOST if not ALL of the fluoride will be available, especially if when it hits the blood stream. The amount of blood in the human body is roughly 8% of body weight, so for a 30 lb. (13. 6 kg) child that would equate to roughly 1.09 kg of blood. And as plasma contitutes 60% of blood, there'd be .65 kg of plasma. One liter of water weighs one kilogram, and plama is chiefly water, let's say there's about 0.5 liters of water in the blood of a 3 year old boy. If sodium fluoride can reach 42,200 ppm in one liter of water, then that means it could reach approximately 21,100 ppm, or 21.1 grams. So we can say that 50 mg of fluoride is available if swallowed.
It is obvious that 50mg is enough to kill a 3 year old boy, so I'd say the KNOWN lethal dose is closer to 3.7 mg of fluoride per kilogram of body weight.
Toothpaste listed in the document linked below is described as to be "sent home with the child" is listed as having 4000 ppm of fluoride, and there is even some there listed as having 5000 ppm of fluoride.
Studies show that adults can absorb up to 0.5 mg per "TV ribbon" brushing. Small children, even if pea-size amount is used, will still absorb the same, more if the child is younger and has less swallowing control skills. Half a tube of toothpaste can kill a child. Current content of sodium fluoride in toothpaste in Canada and the US is up to 0.4% = 4000 ppm (parts per million). Bubblegum-flavored dentifrice obviously is especially inviting for children. Since April 1997 all toothpaste in the US must carry a warning label, advising parents what to do if their child swallows more than the pea-size brushing amount. Wholesale containers carry the poison symbol of skull and crossbones.
The ADA says that fluoride is perfectly safe. I disagree with that, and find that it is reckless to portray fluoride that way. To me, this is nothing other than a massive game of russian roulette. You mention negligence, well, there IS obviously some negligence here, reckless, gross negligence I'd say.
I see that you cut and pasted all the "references" from the ADA website.
I can see why they don't provide any links to these studies, as many of them actually provided detrimental information.
Let's look at the reference given as;
187. Mullenix PJ, Denbesten PK, Schunior A, Kernan WJ. Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats. Neurotoxicol Teratol 1995;17(2):169-77.
THAT study actually shows how sodium fluoride is neurotoxic...
Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats
And there are many other studies that refer to it..
Fluoride's Neurological Effects:
In Harms Way: Toxic Threats to Child Development
And of course, there are other studies that the ADA DIDN'T list..
FLUORIDE-LINKED DOWN SYNDROME BIRTHS AND THEIR ESTIMATED OCCURRENCE DUE TO WATER FLUORIDATION
It is apparent that you've tried to dazzle the readers with your long list of references, just as the ADA hopes to dazzle those who visit their website. Most people would never take the time to even give it a second thought, and simply ASSUME that those papers cited actually PROMOTE the ADA's position. What a clever ruse....
Sure, there might be a few studies performed BY the ADA that promotes their position, and there might be a few studies performed by those with a vested interest in the matter that might side with them. But the OVERWHELMING volume of evidence clearly shows that fluoride IS a poison, and has NO redeeming value WHATSOEVER.
National and International Organizations that Recognize the Public Health Benefits of Community Water Fluoridation for Preventing Dental Decay
Academy of Dentistry International
Academy of General Dentistry
Academy of Sports Dentistry
Alzheimer’s Association
American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry
American Academy of Periodontology
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association for Dental Research
American Association of Community Dental Programs
American Association of Dental Schools
American Association of Endodontists
American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons
American Association of Orthodontists
American Association of Public Health Dentistry
American Cancer Society
American College of Dentists
American College of Physicians — American Society of Internal Medicine
American College of Prosthodontists
American Council on Science and Health
American Dental Assistants Association
American Dental Association
American Dental Hygienists’ Association
American Dietetic Association
American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial
Organizations
American Hospital Association
American Medical Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Pharmaceutical Association
American Public Health Association
American School Health Association
American Society of Clinical Nutrition
American Society of Dentistry for Children
American Society for Nutritional Sciences
American Student Dental Association
American Veterinary Medical Association
American Water Works Association
Association for Academic Health Centers
Association of Maternal and Child Health Programs
Association of State and Territorial Dental Directors
Association of State and Territorial Health Officials
British Dental Association
British Fluoridation Society
British Medical Association
Canadian Dental Association
Canadian Dental Hygienists Association
Canadian Medical Association
Canadian Nurses Association
Canadian Paediatric Society
Canadian Public Health Association
Chocolate Manufacturers Association
Consumer Federation of American
Delta Dental Plans Association
European Organization for Caries Research
FDI World Dental Federation
Federation of Special Care Organizations in Dentistry
-- Academy of Dentistry for Persons with Disabilities
-- American Association of Hospital Dentists
-- American Society for Geriatric Dentistry
Health Insurance Association of America
Hispanic Dental Association
International Association for Dental Research
International Association for Orthodontics
International College of Dentists
Institute of Medicine
National Academy of Sciences
National Alliance for Oral Health
National Association of County and City Health Officials
National Association of Dental Assistants
National Confectioners Association
National Council Against Health Fraud
National Dental Assistants Association
National Dental Association
National Dental Hygienists’ Association
National Down Syndrome Congress
National Down Syndrome Society
National Foundation of Dentistry for the Handicapped
National Kidney Foundation
National PTA
National Research Council
Society of American Indian Dentists
The Dental Health Foundation (of California)
US Department of Defense
US Department of Veterans Affairs
US Public Health Service
Centers for Disease and Prevention (CDC)
Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
Indian Health Service (IHS)
National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR)
World Federation of Orthodontists
World Health Organization
Probably a few scientists in there.
The is analagous to someone giving a child an entire bottle of aspirin and then saying we should ban aspirin because it killed him.
As I said earlier, everything is toxic at high enough doses, even water, do you want to ban water?
It is quite obvious that fluoride ISN'T safe at ALL.
In the rest of your diatribe you completely forgot to mention that there are 3700 studies done since 1970 that show fluoride is safe.
THAT study actually shows how sodium fluoride is neurotoxic...
Well, yes and no, I should have deleted that one, however, that still leaves you with around 280 in that one list alone you've ignored. Also, as we've learned over the years (can you say "ALAR", toxicity in rats does not necessarily apply to humans). Anyway, there are some problems with that study.
In addition, the experiment also studied the offspring of rats who were injected two to three times a day with fluoride during their pregnancies in an effort to show that prenatal exposure resulted in hyperactivity in male offspring.
However, two scientists who reviewed the 1995 study188 have suggested that the observations made can be readily explained by mechanisms that do not involve neurotoxicity. The scientists found inadequacies in experimental design that may have led to invalid conclusions. For example, the results of the experiment were not confirmed by the use of control groups which are an essential feature of test validation and experimental design. In summary the scientists stated, "We do not believe the study by Mullenix et al. can be interpreted in any way as indicating the potential for NaF (sodium fluoride) to be a neurotoxicant." Another reviewer104 noted, "...it seems more likely that the unusually high brain fluoride concentrations reported in Mullenix et al. were the result of some analytical error."
So, like I said, that leaves 280 or so studies you've yet to discount.
And that still leaves 3500 studies yet to go.
Aspirin is a medicine Tom. It is administered ONLY when needed, and then ONLY in measured doses. They don't pump it into the water supply, they don't spray it on vegetables, and they don't put it in toothpaste.
As I said earlier, everything is toxic at high enough doses, even water, do you want to ban water?
Fluoride has cululative toxic effects as well as short term toxicity. It is a poison, with no nutritional value whatsover. It destroys and/or inhibits vital cellular functions. Water is needed for life. There's a bit of a difference between the two..
You can jump around this issue all you want, you can't change the facts. Why is it SO important to you that we continually expose ourselves and our children to this horrendous poison?
You can obfuscuate this all you wish, the facts remain clear. Fluoride is a poison, and any ethical scientist will tell you that.
All that you have proved is that those who promote fluoride care more about their pocketbooks than the health and wellbeing of the human beings that live on this Earth.
It is just one example of how there are apparently some who hold highly respected positions that DO NOT care about human health whatsoever, and actively discourage or discredit ANY evidence contrary to their propaganda.
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