"Harry Potter"

Ayn rand Institute ^ | 11/13/02

[RJCogburn]

The movie adventures of child-wizard Harry Potter will continue on November 15. Far from being an agent of the occult, as his critics contend, Harry Potter is the kind of hero children should be encouraged to read about and emulate, said the executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute.

"It is true that Harry lives in a magical, fantastical world, but what's important is that he is a hero who wins through intelligence, effort and courage," said Dr. Yaron Brook. "Throughout the series, Harry has developed his talents through hard work and has learned to think for himself, to be honest and to be self-confident. He has friends who share his values and he earns the respect of his teachers. Aren't these the character traits all parents want their children to possess? I know they're qualities I actively try to instill in my two boys."

Dr. Brook said that the critics' focus on the supernatural aspects of the Harry Potter stories is completely non-essential. What is fundamental is the abstract meaning being conveyed during the course of Harry's magical adventures. "The books are, in short, fuel for a child's maturing mind. As vitamins and minerals are essential to a child's healthy physical development, so literature with this view of the world is essential to a child's healthy mental development."

[Cultural Jihad]

The religious saying "Judge not, lest ye be judged" is flawed in that it's telling people to avoid using their mind, and reason.

A religious saying cannot by definition be flawed, since they are revealed truths authored by an infinite wisdom. Only the human comprehension of what the saying says can be flawed.

[JenB]

Agreed, with some restrictions regarding "religious". However the comprehension is obviously the hard part - witness the religious forum.

Hey, shouldn't this thread be in General or Religion?

[mamaduck]

I have always believed that verse referred to people considering or judging other peoples souls damned because of their beliefs or actions.

Rational discerment and using your God given mind to make decisions about our own beliefs and actions and about other peoples beleifs and actions is something different.

[lizma]

My children understand the difference between fiction and imagination vs. fact. I look at this is as a way to reinforce it.

After all someday they may read an article from the Washington Post and I want they to recognize hooey when they see it.

[Jael]

"His statements were illustrative of the blind leading the blind. To remain silent about the pit they are heading for would be most uncharitable, but even so I would never presume to judge the state of grace of his or anyone's soul. As it is written, "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Thanks for your reply. But I don't recall a state of grace being mentioned as such. He/she may have assumed that someone isn't a Christian because of a reply they made. But he/she is in no position to hand down any type of judgment or condemnation upon anyone due to that not being a position he/she is in.

The state of one's soul is already confirmed, there isn't any back and forth. Either one is saved by faith in Jesus Christ and his attoning work on the cross, or one isn't. Just because Lurker2 may have an opinion regarding that state has no outcome on said state.

1 John 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


It really doesn't matter what other people think about the state of your soul. It matters only what Jesus Christ knows of you, that you have repented of your sins and turned to him, in faith, believing that He alone is your salvation.

What someone else thinks can't change that. People may in fact think many things about you, and comment on those things, but it will not change any reality that already exist between you and Christ Jesus.

John 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[fifteendogs]

Just saw the new Harry Potter with my 2 sons, 13 and 7. Thoroughly enjoyable. No profanity, no breasts and no sex scenes either male/female, male/male or female/female. Just good fun. I don't know who the people are who complain that the movie is about the occult or the devil or any of that sort of tripe. This is a good movie.

[null and void]

Not all the "facts" are correct or important:

Wanton Violence/Crime (W):

• willingness to commit suicide to enable victory of friends
Never happened, willingness to risk death to prevent evil from excaping into the world. Another word for this is "courage", or maybe a better word is "heroism".

• ghost removing his head
Not quite, his head doesn't come off. That's why he's called "NEARLY Headless Nick"

• beating of a child with a club by a giant troll, seeing the club hit the child, repeatedly
Never happened, not that the troll didn't try.

Drugs/Alcohol (D):
• smoking
I missed the passage in the Bible forbiding this.

Offense to God (O)(2):
• "Not all wizards are good"
No kidding.

• "There is no good or evil. There's only power" (Voldemort)
That's why he's the bad guy. You want a good bad guy???

• paintings with moving subjects, repeatedly
Like that eeeevil TV in your living room?

• Christmas without Jesus
Like in any mall...

[Cultural Jihad]

But you judged Lurker yourself by calling him boorish,...

A man who staggers up to you smelling of strong drink and incontinence, yelling at hidden phantoms, is called a drunkard. Are we judging his soul's state of grace? Or are we judging his behaviors? Can one person judge another's actions as right or wrong without judging the person who acts?

[Irish Eyes]

Glad that you found it thoroughly enjoyable. Sounds like a great family day.

In my opinion most people that say that it leads to the devil or satan have never read the books or seen the movie (s)

[Jael]

Hi Jen, you said "They tend to be the legalistic type who don't believe in having fun on Sundays."

I was wondering if you knew what real legalism is? It is the religious doctrine that someone can be saved by keeping certain laws or doing certain works. It is a false doctrine.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:1  ¶What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2  For *if* Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,.......

Romans 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[thinktwice]

But you judged Lurker yourself by calling him boorish,

I didn't say Lurker was boorish, but I won't disagree with anyone saying he's boorish.

[Jael]

"I'll give you violence"

Thanks Jen!!!

[JenB]

Exactly. Your actions do not affect your continued salvation. That is the work and gift of God. So Harry Potter is not going to damn me, any more than keeping the Law will save me. We're talking about symptoms and not the real issue.

[thinktwice]

A religious saying cannot by definition be flawed

Nothing involving mysticism -- by definition -- can be proven true, and therein lies religious flaws.

[keats5]

Well, I have some examples of kids turning to witchcraft after reading Harry Potter.

The first is my niece. At the age of 10, she started reading the Potter Books. At the age of 11 she told me she was a witch. Yes, not the fantasy type of witch with the cute spells, but she actually joined a Wiccan coven. It was all the rage, and her mother supported her decision. I'm her Godmother, so I took the liberty of explaining to her that she could not claim to be both a witch and a Christain. She was shocked. She really thought it was OK to both. (The books make it seem so innocent, you see.)

My older kids are 12 & 13, and they tell me about their Harry Potter crazed friends at school. Last year, one of my sons told me his classmate was "going nuts with witchcraft". He kept bringing new witchcraft books to school, and spoke of little else during recess. The books started as Potter, but ended with Wiccan theology. He now considers himself a witch.

Today, my son's class went on a field trip to see the new Harry Potter movie. My son asked me not to make him go. I supported his decision. These two incidents freaked him out so much, he decided to stear clear of the Harry Potter craze on his own. We actually had one of the books in our house, but I was the only one who read it. It was a gift to the boys. They still haven't opened it.

[Jael]

"Which dastardly movie was that? Ishtar? Harry Potter was a good movie. My opinion counts just as much as yours- yes or no? I say it was good. Which part of the movie did you object to? Assuming you've seen it, of course.

Are you in communication with God at the moment? Am I? How do you know? Maybe God was sitting with me in the theatre enjoying the movie too. I say he was. Prove he wasn't."

My concern is not about you and God. I certainly can't answer those questions regarding God for you. :-) It isn't germane to the actual movie and the violence and filth it contains as subject matter. (As documented here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/789874/posts?page=170#170)

You are certainly free to believe that those things are wholesome and even of some entertainment value. I personally hold to a different standard.

[JenB]

Sounds like, no disrepect to your niece's parents, these are exactly the kind of kids I'm talking about. They have no firm moral background so they are easy prey for anything that comes along.

I repeat, children who have firm Christian groundings will not be threatened by Harry Potter. They may not enjoy the books, either, but they will not need to fear them.

[Cultural Jihad]

Nothing involving mysticism -- by definition -- can be proven true, and therein lies religious flaws.

There, be a brave scientist about it, rather than superstitiously fearing the use of your own reason. Don't take my word for it. Go and see for yourself for all the proof you need.

[Jael]

What a blessing your post was!!! I personally know some real Witches and Wiccans and one Family Tradition witch. They adore the fact that the occult and witchcraft is presented in such a positive light.

I truly don't understand why it isn't understood that fiction or non fiction, a presentation of evil is not a good thing for children.

[Jael]

Jen, can you find anything in Scripture that would support any innocent child being exposed to the thought that witchcraft is a positive Godly thing?