Posted on 11/15/2002 12:01:45 PM PST by nickcarraway
Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, condemned America's Christian right yesterday for propagating hatred against Muslims, in what appeared to be a coordinated White House campaign to confront anti-Islamic rhetoric from a constituency that includes some of the Bush administration's staunchest supporters. Days after the televangelist Pat Robertson said on his Christian Broadcasting Network that "what the Muslims want to do to the Jews is worse" than the Holocaust, Mr Powell told a gathering in Washington: "This kind of hatred must be rejected."
The escalation in anti-Muslim comments from conservative Christians includes a recent claim by Jerry Falwell, the country's leading rightwing Baptist, that the prophet Mohammed was "a terrorist".
Veteran evangelist Jimmy Swaggart followed that this week by calling Mohammed a "sex deviant" and a pervert and demanding that Muslim students in the US be expelled. "We ought to tell every other Muslim living in this nation that if you say one word, you're gone," he said.
As the likelihood grows of a war in Iraq there are strategic benefits for the White House in convincing Muslims that it would not be a war against their religion.
The administration's increased willingness to confront the Christian right reflects the Republicans' sweeping victories in last week's mid-term elections, reducing Mr Bush's reliance on the extreme fringes of his supporter base.
Easy enough to understand.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If you can show me where I've actually been nasty toward you I will apologize. OK?
You know that I am right, you just don't like the fact that I made an end run around your argument.
I do agree that rather than respond to my challenge head on you have instead attempted to "make an end run AROUND" it.
You said that Jesus "spoke out" against homosexuality.
I challenged you to show me a single quote from the Bible to support that claim.
Show me ONE VERSE.
I'm still waiting.
BUT once again, just so you don't misrepresent my argument. I never said that God and the Bible didn't call homosexuality a sin. It is clearly a sin. And I'm sure Jesus believed it was a sin.
But according the Bible, Jesus never actually chose to speak out on the subject.
He spoke out on many issues of sin, but this was not one of them.
Your statement is factually wrong.
You must separate Jesus from God to say Jesus did not speak to homosexuality.
No I don't. All I have to do is recognize Jesus as a distinct Person of the Trinity.....just as the writers of the Bible did when attributing quotes to Him.
Why didn't the apostles and writers of the New Testament when recording what Jesus actually spoke about just throw in any of the Old Testament quotes from God and claim Jesus stated them?
Are you saying they denied the Trinity, or the Diety of Christ as you accuse me of doing?
This is an absurd and convoluted argument you've constructed in an attempt to avoid admitting what you said was wrong.
The fact is ONLY Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus is a distinct member of the Trinity.
And according to everything recorded in the Bible, Jesus NEVER actually "spoke out" against homosexuality, or bestiality, or incest or any number of sins.
That is what the Bible says. Unless of course you don't beleive the Bible?
Oh no! That wasn't a very nice thing to say now was it. (sob)
As you say, sin is sin. So what is wrong with dealing with one particular sin? You seem angry that Falwell mentioned homosexuality and not blasphemy.
Nothing's wrong with dealing with one particular sin. And far from being angry that Falwell addresses homosexuality as sin, I agree with him. It is a sin.
What I disagree with is Falwell's claim to not only know that 9-11 was a judgement from God for America's sins, but also have devine knowledge as to exactly which sins God was punishing America for.
And somehow these just happened to be ONLY the sins he, Jerry Falwell has been harping on for years. What a coincidence!
Give me a major break!
I would be very careful about calling any Christian a Pharisee, you will be judged by your own judgments.
Right. You sit here defending somebody making judgements that God kills 3,000 innocent men, women and children by smashing planes into buildings because of "homos, pagans and feminists".....
...and then you presume to warn me about the horror of daring to call a person a "Pharisee".
You're joking, right?
Actually there are only around 5 passages that directly address homosexuality as sin in the entire Bible, in any terms.
Leviticus 18:22 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Romans 1:26,27 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Also; I Cor. 6:9-10 and I Tim. 1:9-10 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:10 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
_________________________ Notice that none of these are quotes where Jesus "spoke out" "against" homosexual as you claimed.
That is because there is no record of Jesus speaking out on the subject of homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.
And I accept your apology. It's difficult to post a full account of one's entire position in a few messages...
Are you saying God did not say this?
Not at all. I believe the author of Leviticus when he claims God made these statements.
God could be lifting His Divine protection for the sins of this nation. God has done it to other nations before and could do it again.
On these things I agree with you. It definitely could be the case.
I just don't believe it is always proper to interpret fortune and misfortune as definitely signs from God that He is either angry with us or pleased with us.
If that was the case then all rich and successful people must therefore be pleasing God...and all the poor and afflicted people are suffering because they are evil in God's eyes.
If God allowed 9-11 because we are such an evil nation, then why does He also allow us to be the most prosperous and powerful nation in the history of the world? Because He favors us?
All I'm saying is that people should be more careful when they attribute things like 9-11 to America being evil. And I don't believe them when they claim it is God's judgement for all the things they personally are ticked off about.
Lastly, I like to go back to the fundamentals. So when I constantly hear folks using the fact that Jesus (as a Man on earth) was not recorded as saying anything about Homosexuality, I like to remind them that Jesus is God and He said plenty BEFORE he came to earth as a man. Now if a person does not believe that Jesus is God then they may have an argument. But if Jesus is God then Homosexuality is dealt with by Him.
Believe it or not..I agree with your position as stated above.
Of course it was covered in a general sense by His statements against sexual immorality...but Jesus seemed much more concerned with hypocrisy and spiritual darkness in the Church, or among religious leaders.
That is why I think if Falwell spoke about 9-11 as a judgement from God, He should have realized that God's judgement begins with the Church first. And then secondly with unbelievers.
That was really my point.
Believe it or not I am completely on your side when you present it this way.
I have argued this exact same point with so-called "gay Christians" for several years in other forums. Here are some examples;
Sometimes it is said that the Bible does not record any words of Jesus about homosexuality, and therefore it must be acceptable to God. However, the Bible does not record sayings of Jesus about a number of other specific sins either. When people asked Jesus about marriage, He told them to remember what Genesis said about God's plan for marriage (Matthew 19:1-12). So, in this sense, Jesus did have something to say about homosexual partnerships. If people had asked Him, He would have told them to remember what God said about marriage in Genesis. God only blessed sex within the committed marriage relationship of a man and a woman.
In other words; Jesus refered to the Genesis account and, more specifically, to *created intent* as the *Standard by which to judge All sexual matters.* [Standard; something set up as a rule for measuring or as a model to be followed.]
What Jesus said is one and the same as calling any deviation from it a sin along with, fornication, adultery and yes, homosexuality etc.
Jesus didn't have to name *every single form of deviant sexual behavior* for us to know that He considers it all sin.
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