Western Victories Over Islamic Hordes

11/14/02 | Sparta

[Sparta]

I am trying to compile a list of Islamic defeats since the beginning of that disgraceful religion. This is to try to prove that Muslim soldiers really are not that scary. The West has consistently kicked Islam's a$$ since its beginning. Please post examples of this religion's stellar military performance. (links to websites welcome)

[Kaiwen]

Every Muslim nation is a God damned authoritarian rathole.

Turkey has been a democracy longer than Germany, Italy, Spain and all of Eastern Europe.

[xm177e2]

It's true. The Moors were more enlightened, more interested in scholarship, and more tolerant than most of the Europeans. There were many Jews living in Spain at the time, and when the Christians threw out the Muslims, they also threw out all of the Jews.

Some people want to pretend Catholics were always nice nice folks, and that Muslims were always rabid death-loving Jihadis, but that's just not true.

[justa-hairyape]

But, that aside, the Muslims had their heads handed to them by the Mongols, many times.

The Mongols are surprising to me. Archers on fast horses were their main military weapon ? Seems hard to understand how that 'weapon' allowed them to conquer so much. Its entirely possible that their mindset was the main factor that allowed them to destroy Islamic forces.

When fighting Barbarians, one must use barbaric tactics. Otherwise you end up folding like Rome. I say bring out the tactical nukes.

[Mamzelle]

Effectual if you are a very weak entity assaulting a strong one. Effectual for a powerful nation of passionate mujahadeen? No...

While it is never wise to underestimate an enemy, it's not good to overestimate him either. The youthful populations of Muslim nations are huge... why aren't they in a real army, instead of the few in these covert ragtags? Why does Saddam and the Sauds need to pay Palestinians to kill themselves? They have the means to join and make an army worthy of the name.

Killers, assassins--but they don't look very warrior-like to me.

[Coeur de Lion]

The only reason the Moors were more tolerant than the Christians in this case was due to the fact that the Koran specifically did not allow the forceable conversion of the "People of the Book." The church also was opposed to forceable conversion, though that didn't prevent secular rulers from expelling or placing Jews in ghettos. The Moors and Jews in Spain were given an option to either convert or be expelled. There were many that chose to convert. Since, the concept of Nation State hadn't really been defined as inclusive of people of different faiths in the West just consider this forced assimilation. The fact that many of the converts were suspect of not truly converting (i.e. cryptojews) was one of the chief causes which led up to the Spanish Inquistion.

[Burdened White Man]

What would it take for you to accept the possibility that people mean what they say and know more about what they say than you tell me you know what they say? Why should I believe you rather than the commandments of their religion and 1,500 years of history?

How is it that I keep failing to recognize your version of what I'm saying? Millions of people call themselves "Christians" but do not adhere to the letter of the Bible while others do--they are called fundamentalists. Likewise not all Muslims adhere to a literal translation of the Koran, while others--called "FUNDAMENTALISTS"--do. How is it that you can't grasp the concept that religions evolve into various sects that follow their sacred writings in varying degrees and in some cases, such as Protestant liberals, virtually not at all. Hence Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Mormons, Unitarians etc.

In Islam varying interpretations have led to Ahmaydia, Alawi, Druze,Ismali,Nation of Islam, Salafy, Shia, New Sufi,and Wahhabi Movements. Clearly when it comes to doctrine, Islam is no more monolithic than Christianity. Some of these sects take every word of the Koran literally while others have more nuanced interpretations. Perhaps Muhammad is rolloing over in his grave, but there it is.

[John Locke]

Ernle Bradford: The Great Siege: Malta 1565.

But my favorite victory over the Islamic Hordes (TM) was in 1258, when the Mongols under Hulegu sacked Baghdad and destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate. There has been no Caliph since then.

[VOA]

Honestly, I feel Europe is doomed. Those people are lazy, self absorbed, licentious and careless.

Since 9-11, I've used the term "Islamic Republics of France, Belgium, Germany, and Austria".

Fortunately, some author (whose name escapes me) has come up with a better term:
Eurabia.

[Sparta]

I don't consider Vlad the Impaler Western because Vlad was an absolute tyrant. Absolute tyranny violates the very aspects of Western Civilization because one of our trademarks is a consentual form of government.

[Sparta]

Yes!!!!

[Sparta]

Israel has a capitalist economy, permits civil liberties, is nationalistic, is a democracy, and applies reason to solve problems. In my book, Israel is Western.

[Sparta]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Russians or the Indians. Also, feel free to describe other countries and battles that have not been mentioned.

[VOA]

In my book, Israel is Western.

Absolutely. Might as well be "West Los Angeles By The Mediterranean".

[Sparta]

Absolutely. Might as well be "West Los Angeles By The Mediterranean".

Even under assualt with illegal immigrants and rising crime just like Los Angeles.

[brbethke]

Here's the most interesting thing my search on "El Cid" turned up:

Yes, that's Charleton Heston saving the world one more time in the 1961 feature, "El Cid" -- *and* getting the babe, who in this case is Sophia Loren, who you've got to admit is one seriously major babe.

[brbethke]

I got yer Heston for ya...

[Sparta]

Bump.

[RLK]

How is it that I keep failing to recognize your version of what I'm saying?

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Because you are determined not to. You have some kind of investment in this thing which blinds you.

[RLK]

Killers, assassins--but they don't look very warrior-like to me.

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Looking like a warrior is irrelevant. This isn't the movies. They are using the same methods Mao used to conquer China and the communists used to conquer Russia and Viet Nam. Infiltrate. Terrorize. Wear down. Get concessions. It's working.

[LS]

Yah, I think Hanson would say that when Mongol meets Muslim, the Mongols win precisely because it is "east vs. east" and NEITHER side had the "western way of war." I also agree that the Mongols were the more brutal of the two.