The Democrats stole two Senate seats--and still it wasn't enough ~ WSJ.

The Wall Street Journal. editorial page ^ | November 14, 2002 | The Wall Street Journal. Editorial Board

[Elle Bee]

It's not enough for John Thune to just talk about "unethical" voting practices.

Republican John Thune threw in the towel on his South Dakota Senate race yesterday, notwithstanding the suspicious circumstances under which he lost by a mere 524 votes. We think that at a minimum he owed his many supporters a recount.

[fooman]

We need to root out this fraud FOR the LA election. We need make sure that the cheaters think twice before they vote!

[Elle Bee]

But a lot of Americans, including people in SD, have a high opinion of the FBI.

The FBI is believable to the vast majority of the people because they clearly do no thave a dog in the fight - Thune does, and he'd be painted as a "Sore Loserman."

The FBI is feckless .. and now run by one of Clinton former US Attorneys

Who would the average people (I am talking about folks who hardly pay attention to politics until the last two weeks before an election) believe? The RNC, the DNC, or the FBI?

None of the above

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[Poohbah]

Could you really have a credible investigation without begining with a forensic audit / recount?

Yes. The ballots, not having any identification tying them to specific voters, are worthless in the investigation. The real investigation is in the registration records and the precinct rosters.

[harpu]

"Allow us to translate: Yes, Mr. Thune thinks the election was probably stolen, but he'll have a hard time proving it, won't win in the end anyway and along the way he'll be so beat up by Tom Daschle's political machine that he'd never be able to run for statewide office again. He's only 41 years old, so better to walk than fight. That may sound cynical, but what else are his supporters to make of that ripe phrase, 'though unethical'?"

Me thinks Mr. Thune is getting ready (with Bush & HIS political machine) to unseat Mr. Dashole when his turn comes for running again!

[Elle Bee]

We need make sure that the cheaters think twice before they vote!

and vote thrice

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[Miss Marple]

The recount has nothing to do with fraudulent registration or manufactured voters. All it does is count the votes in the boxes. How are you going to distinguish the fraudulent votes for Johnson from the real ones?

The DOJ is doing this right: they are investigating the registration practices of the democrats, going over the voter roles and checking dead people voting and who registered them, etc.

A recount would NOT add one whit to the investigation.

By the way, what in the world is a forensic audit/recount? I have never heard that term.

[Elle Bee]

The real investigation is in the registration records and the precinct rosters.

Which is an intrigal part of the forensic audit / recount

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[DaisyCutter]

Recounting the ballots won't tell you which ones were fraudulent. It would only verify the original count(unless the Dims manufactured more votes, like they're trying to do in Alabama) and cement it in people's minds that Thune did, in fact, lose.

However, going over the voter roles would be useful. Since SD is so low in population, it is feasible to do a comparison of voter roles to see if the same person voted more than once. Or if a person requested an absentee ballot, then voted in person; or if a dead or non-existant person voted.

Then we have the information we already know about. Some voters indicated they were paid to vote, others are under indictment for obtaining illegal ballots, etc, and the DoJ is still investigating. There wasn't much Thune could do except express his misgivings about potential fraud and wait for the investigation to turn up evidence of such.

[hchutch]

I didn't ask who YOU would believe, I was asking who the average person would believe. Let them do their jobs, and nail the people responsible. I bet that they'll have enough to send those folks who committed to jail, and it's a simple matter to make sure the chairman of whoever runs that committee is given the results, particularly if they indicate enough fraud occured to call the election into doubt.

And at that point, it's gonna be a tough spot for the Dems in the Senate - do they race-bait the FBI, and risk alienating the center, or do they let Johnson be unseated, and tick off their base?

[Elle Bee]

By the way, what in the world is a forensic audit/recount? I have never heard that term.

You back up reported results with documents (registrations, physical ballots) then verify the documents

It's SOP in a real investigation

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[Cvengr]

Why would he want to represent a population that surrenders its right to vote to Democratic socialists so easily?

Seems to me that their first political concern should lie with a common respect for the vote. Without that, it really doesn't matter what or who goes to Washington.

Everybody now knows that the SD Congressman and his constituency are corrupt.

[Basil Duke]

Because they are Republicans. Traditionally, the party has shown a sad inclination to roll over and take it when the Dems pull their usual election fraud tricks. (Nixon ('60),Dornan, Ashcroft, etc.)

[amigatec]

The Democrats have a LONG LONG history of doing just this sort of thing. Right after the Civil War the Rats would take the Blacks down to the polling place hold a gun to their head and tell them to vote Rat.

It was the Rats that passed the laws to keep the blacks from voting, until they discovered that they could use the Blacks to get reelected.

I think Mr Thune did the right thing, with the country going more right and the Rats going more left, just wait and see. The Rats lost some MAJOR races this year, they are still unaware just how much the Clintons hurt there party.

[Miss Marple]

Let me get this straight. You think a recount is necessary to prove fraudulent registration? I don't think so.

The object of the investigation is to catch those who practiced fraud. It is NOT to make Thune the winner.

I will be satisfied if it is pursued through the DOJ. If you do a recount, you will accomplish nothing except ill will.

Example: It is not necessary to do a recount to ascertain that there was a huge increase in registration of certain counties. It is not necessary to see that these new registrants had an exceptionally high turnout. What the DOJ will do is see if these are REAL people, if they indeed voted, and if they were eligible. Should 500 of them be found to be fraudulent, you cannot simply take 500 votes away from Johnson. How are you going to prove how these 500 fraudulent voters voted? We can assume that they were Johnson votes, but you can't PROVE it.

A recount does nothing to help the investigation. I realize you are frustrated, but we are in a long war here, and your state unfortunately was a defeat AT THIS TIME. But if there is widespread fraud uncovered and prosecuted, then Thune's sacrifice and that of the Republicians WHO VOTED FOR HIM in South Dakota will be part of a larger victory.

[Dog Gone]

The best way to stop voter fraud is to make sure that we have Republicans AT EVERY VOTER PRECINCT in the country monitoring the process.

It boggles my mind that we allow entire counties to be run by Democrats. Nobody watches them.

[mwl1]

You are correct. And we are going to scare Daschle out of seeking re-election in 2004. GWB will be on the top of the ticket, and Daschle cannot say, split your ticket to keep me as the majority leader.

Daschle is now political toast. Ironic that he needed Johnson to save his hide and now because Johnson won fraudulently, Daschle has undone his own career.

[Miss Marple]

I agree, we need more watchers. However, it is pretty hard in some areas to get Republicans there. In some precincts in inner cities Republicans are threatened and/or intimidated(example election night in Little Rock) and in some areas, like the Sioux reservations the precincts are pretty remote.

I was heartened by the placement of DOJ civil rights observers in certain areas of Florida, which no doubt contributed to less attempts at fraud, coupled with the touch-screen machines which were a lot harder to mess with.

Bet you 10 bucks that there will be BIA and DOJ on the reservations next go-around.

[mwl1]

Yes, Bush is on the top of the ticket in 2004 and Thune will either scare Daschle out of seeking re-election, or we will take him out with the Bush tidal wave.

[DaisyCutter]

Example: It is not necessary to do a recount to ascertain that there was a huge increase in registration of certain counties. It is not necessary to see that these new registrants had an exceptionally high turnout. What the DOJ will do is see if these are REAL people, if they indeed voted, and if they were eligible. Should 500 of them be found to be fraudulent, you cannot simply take 500 votes away from Johnson. How are you going to prove how these 500 fraudulent voters voted? We can assume that they were Johnson votes, but you can't PROVE it.

Agreed. There might be some state election laws that could come into play. I know that, for example, in the county where I reside in Indiana, if a polling machine has a severe malfunction, the ballots from that machine will be discarded unless they could affect the outcome of a race. In that instance there would be a revote in that precinct. Same thing occurs if a entire precinct has issues. I'm unsure of the remedy for fraud, but generally, it seems that if the results from an area are considered unreliable, they are tossed out, unless there is a close race, then there would be a revote.

I guess that raises another question. If there is evidence of fraud that could have possibly affected the outcome, is there a prescribed remedy in SD?

[Tunehead54]

A recount would merely recount the same fraudulent ballots...and Thune would still lose.

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Mightn't they focus on Shannon County? Don't they at least require a signature at the polls plus on absentee ballots?

Finding enough bogus signatures could lead to a wider investigation ... maybe the WSJ could microscopically review ballots like they (newspapers) did in FL in 2000?