H-1B Study (All you US Citizen IT Workers are TOAST!)

U.S. House Judiciary Committee Testimony ^ | September 10, 2002 | Dr. Norman Matloff

[discostu]

No assumption, some people are OVER qualified for just about any position. Sad state of afairs. I'd never believed in that phrase until I got to do some hiring. But then I wound up in a position to be kicking people out of "the list" because they would clearly cost us too much, not that they weren't WORTH it, but that we couldn't afford it. It really sucked, I felt horrible, these people would have been wonderful additions to the department, some of them I would have gladly abdicated my position and put them in charge of the department, but we couldn't afford them even as manager. And this was before the economy started getting weak-kneed on us. When money is tight all over companies have to worship that bottom line even more strictly.

Most of the H1Bs I worked with were inherrited via merger so I have no idea what process went into getting them. The one I was actually around for the hiring of it was such an arduous process with reems of paperwork I just can't see going through that much hell unnecessarily (they actually started the hiring process on this person 2 months before I got there and the paperwork didn't finish for 2 more months). As always your milage may vary, at that time we weren't an international company, I wouldn't doubt they'd get preferential treatment, and like many government forms I'm sure the paperwork is a hell of a lot easier if you don't care if it's legal.

As for indentured servitude, none of those guys had a problem fleeing that company when the end was nie, they didn't seem any more indentured than the rest of us.

All we can work with is what we've experienced, in Tucson H1B's aren't very popular (but the tech job market is still pretty tight, our industry really screwed the pooch with the whole dot-com thing). The numbers have shown me that things are very different on the coasts than the interior (except PA which has a lot of H1Bs). Maybe it's the port city mentality, or the fact that wages already tend to be lower in the smaller non-coastal cities so companies don't need to shop in foreign countries for a good deal (I know I could nearly double my wages in the Bay area, but I'd triple my rent, and Tucson is a bout as liberal as I can stand anyway). One things is for sure, like so many things in America the H1B picture is not homogonized.

[1john2 3and4]

thanks! and....there's a name-change afoot! it is now called "comphealth", hq'd in grand rapids, mich.....just a "plausable deniability"-length boatride from the candian border. (hey, just 'cause im paranoid, doesnt mean theyre NOT after me, ya know!)http://www.comphealth.com/website/index.vm?ses-isFlash=true

[bvw]

I named one giant hydraulic press's embedded control system the I wrote from scratch "Wotan". The older version -- code from the Swedish manufacturer -- code that I then I had modified I called "Odin".

You repeated an old saw in the industry when you said, "Most programmers can pick up needed skills in time, but in a fast growing company the opportunity costs of having someone not producing for a few months can be quite high."

The first part is true -- when inspired and empowered, many programmers can do wonders, on any platform in any language. The heart of the art of real programming is language independent, platform indepedent and it is a common insanity and meaness that people hire on some ignorant idiot's basis of current buzzwords and fads -- they call them "skill sets" or some such. People get so caught up in them -- it is silly, but it is pervasive.

The second part, that is: "the opportunity costs of having someone not producing for a few months can be quite high." Is poisonous and wrong. Throw out that mindset, and never repeat such a thing again!

A company has a knowledge of what it is making, what service it is provided, what package it is selling and who it is selling to, and what that market expects. A successful company is expert in this knowledge. This knowledge is what is important and has zero to do with say, the overwrought differences between Oracle 9 and Oracle 8. If the computer language "skill set" is more important, why then by common sense the company has naught that any competitor couldn't have and is in bad shape.

It is the knowledge intrinsic to the actual thing being done that takes time to learn -- the computer language is a half to three day thing in any genuine, bonafide, practial part of it needed to do the actual job.

[Marauder]

The only profession that may be preserved is the legal profession.

In view of the fact that most congress critters are lawyers, I'd say that's a safe bet.

[discostu]

There's only 100 results displayed of the 214, but I do see two different EIN so we know there's two different companies, now poking back into my old search I see that the second EIN (522212745) is what's returned on that. So this company is in the DOL database under four different names (DCM Technologies Limited, DCM Technologies Ltd, DCM ASIC Technologies Limited, and finally DCM ASIC Technologies Ltd). Which is just plain bad data management (reminds me of one of our clients at the accounting software company that had the electric company in their vendor list SIX times, then they blamed us when their data didn't mesh the hardcopy files). Now if I do a search on just that EIN I get 122 results.

So we're back to DOL's data sucks ass. Good to know you still can't trust the fed. But Zazona is still not without sin, we have yet to exactly match their results with the DOL. But there's only so much you can do with crappy data.

I've never said anything pro or con about the US worker in these threads. That's not the topic of discussion. Don't put words in other people's mouths.

[1john2 3and4]

... Group One Therapy Changes Name to Reflect Parent Company, CompHealth Group One Therapy, Grand Rapids, Mich, an allied health professional staffing company ... www.rtmagazine.com/Articles.ASP?articleid=R9910D04 - but the home page says hq'd in salt lake city utah......investigating.....

also got ... (dba Group One Therapy), effective October 1, 2001, to increase the payment limit by $150,000 to a new payment limit of $350,000 to provide additional physical ... www.co.contra-costa.ca.us/depart/board/b121801.htm

ok, lots to do...laters!

[discostu]

Your point #2 deserves some further emphasis. When I was in school (early 90s) my C and C++ classes were about half filled with old COBOL people (some out of work, some building their skills on their own dime, some sent for training by their company). And these weren't old decrepit people, they were in their mid to late 30s (maybe early 40s) but they hadn't adapted and were now in deep doodoo careerwise. It's one of the reasons I went to QA rather than coding (that and I really don't like coding), redardless of the language used there will always be bugs, I just have to make sure I'm moderately compitent with whatever OS is gaining steam, and once you've used a dozen OSes they all start looking the same anyway. Evolve or die is the life of programmers, a lot of people got saved because it turned out Java wasn't as cool as we thought (but it might be getting there, still hard to forcast with Java), now it looks like .Net is vieing for "next big thing".

All your other points are good too, though I have issues with organized labor and that's actually one of the things that drew me to software. I will admit that in the short term organized labor does better, but eventually they kill the company (look what they did to mining, what they're doing to the airlines).

[bvw]

Greed is fine. It's a motivator. Drop it from your complaint and you help your argument.

I am also against this H1B program, but have come to think the reason we have not made headway against it is because of petty arrogance and myopic pride, throwing overwhleming and undigested stats and whining long-winded essays at people. Many times it comes off an incoherent, babbling whine -- people not only stop reading to the thing before them, they throw it out "with prejudice", and ignore even great, well-done anti-H1B arguments later.

[discostu]

I wasn't wrong, the data sucks (same company listed with 4 names), Zazona's presentation of it is lacking and makes it seem to suck even more (trimmed important columns that makes apparent duplicates), and their "exact" copy isn't too good because we have yet to get identical results with identical queries (DCM Asic returns 104 results at Zazona, but 119 (querying for name "DCM ASIC") at DOL (or 122 if you go by the EIN, of 214 if you query with just DCM... mand that database sucks)).
I wasn't insolent, you're the one that started shouting and cursing and just generally being an ass.
There's nothing to "admit" about US workers because that's not the topic of discussion. I have yet to say anything about the US worker and I'm not going to.

Now how about YOU admit you're being far too worked up over this and just calm down so this discussion can return to a civil tone.

[bvw]

China and India committed themselves to producing engineering and programming talent in the 70's, just like we did in the 50's after the Russian's launched the Sputnik satellite. I don't know much about the Chinese schools, but the Indian tech schools are the equal of most of ours and without the moral morass of "liberal PC-ism" that ruins many of our undergraduates. A Indian gradutes out of IIT or the schools in Pune and Bangalore with almost no debt load. The Indian college eduacation has been subsidized by the state.

They can afford to work here for peanuts. Our kids can not -- many graduate with huge debt loads.

[Marauder]

Our government is becoming ever more detached from the electorate.

A direct result of uninformed voting, or no voting at all. The original idea was to keep congress critters rotated so that they'd work for us instead of themselves and big donation sources.

It may take a long time, but I hope someday soon the electorate wakes up and starts doing its job.

[dark_lord]

With all of that IT talent available why can't anyone find a technician to fix computers locally for less than $55/hr? And why do these folks work by the hour and not by the result? How come my geek friends do for me in less time and for a soda what shops predict will be a week and want hundreds of dollars to do? If these IT workers do for companies what they are doing to me, I can see why there are no jobs for them.

Your questions are a bit off topic, but I would like to answer them in a couple of ways.

(a) What would you consider a minimum $/hr rate for fixing computers? How would you compare that rate to say, auto mechanics? Do you think that auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, and home handymen should work based on the finished result versus a $/hr rate?
Here is what I think. 1st, fixing computers is a "technician" role, and not the topic of this thread at all. But most "skilled laborers", which is what technicians are, are paid by the hour. I think in some cases you can negotiate a fixed fee - try it with a plumber some time. Normally they will "guesstimate" what the cost will be, multiply by 1.5 or 2, and give that to you as the fixed fee with some escape clauses so that if the problem is significantly different than estimated that they don't get burned.

(b) For your question as to why "your geek friends" will do the work for you for a soda - well, a plumber friend, or an auto mechanic friend might do the same for a soda (or a beer.) But they have no legal liability for the job, right? Whereas when someone does work for you from a corporate perspective, they do. If a computer technician "fixes" your computer and as a result the computer catches fire and melts down (never heard of it happening, but if the power supply fan failed with certain chipsets it could happen), then they could be on the hook (legally) to replace your computer (you could sue them in small claims court and probably win if they didn't) - but a friend fixing it for free would not have any such liability (Judge Judy would laugh in your face if you wanted replacement cost from your friend who you only paid with a soda.)

[FlyingA]

HYDERABAD, India (AP) Microsoft chairman Bill Gates visited India's software hub Thursday to talk business and immunize children, winding up a tour during which he pledged $500 million.

Gates met with Chief Minister N. Chandrababu Naidu and health officials in Andhra Pradesh state to review progress made by a child immunization program funded by his foundation.

The Microsoft chief visited a health clinic in rural Mehbubnagar, 30 miles south of Hyderabad, the state capital, where he launched the second phase of the program that seeks to help more than 1 million Indian children each year.

With Naidu at his side, Gates toured the clinic and administered polio vaccines to several children.

''Is the hospital always full of patients like this?'' he asked doctors, who replied in the affirmative.

''I am so happy to visit the health clinic and meet the doctors and mothers, see vaccinations that work and see how excited the people are about the help for their children,'' Gates told the doctors.

The campaign intends to introduce the hepatitis B vaccine as part of routine immunization in the state. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has committed $12.5 million for the five-year program.

There are about 43 million hepatitis B virus carriers in India who are at risk of chronic liver diseases, including liver cancer.

The project aims to save some 6,000 lives each year from complications resulting from hepatitis B infection.

On Monday, Gates pledged $100 million from his foundation to fight AIDS in India. He announced Tuesday that Microsoft would invest $400 million to expand his company's activities and promote computer literacy.

Gates praised Naidu, the state's top elected official, for speaking out in favor of AIDS prevention, still a taboo topic in many parts of India.

While the Indian government expressed gratitude for his grant to fight AIDS, some senior officials and health activists have accused him of using inflated figures. India rejected the U.S. National Intelligence Council report cited by Gates, which forecasts the number of HIV-infected people in India will rise to 20-25 million by 2010 from about 4 million now.

The Gates Foundation is funding $25 million in health projects in Andhra Pradesh, including development of an oral vaccine against severe diarrhea, which kills 250,000 children in India each year.

Hyderabad, a leader in India's computer software boom, is home to Microsoft's only software development center outside the United States. Gates was scheduled to visit the Microsoft center as well as the Satyam center, one of India's largest software firms.


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Team Manager at Sears Regional Credit Card Operation Center
Software Engineer at Revahertz, Inc.
Research Associate at Worcester Regional Research Bureau
Program Manager at Xontech, Inc.

[FormerLurker]

They simply haven't recognized that no one gives you knowledge, you have to take it. Most are waiting for the company to "retrain" them. Too bad. So sad. Bye, Bye. You do not understand modern corporate realities.

If you want to be a "victim", then it's a choice you made -- not a role someone made you take.

Hey bud, I've dealt with new technologies every time I took a new contract, as I had been consulting for many years. I've been involved with SONET and other cutting edge work, so don't think yourself to be so special in your pursuit of knowledge and skills.

I'm sure that I could do whatever you do, and more than likely do it as well if not better..

The entire problem is that companies are NOT hiring Americans for the most part, especially if that American is a senior engineer. Wake up and smell the coffee, as you might be the next one out in the street..

[FormerLurker]

If this is true is smacks of anti-trust, and possibly RICO-type conspiracy to defraud.

My sentiments exactly.

[FormerLurker]

With all of that IT talent available why can't anyone find a technician to fix computers locally for less than $55/hr?

Many software development engineers don't even earn that much. Are you talking about what a computer store would charge you for working on your PC? That is simply store profit, as the technician more than likely makes $12-$15 per hour or so....

[FormerLurker]

Greed is fine. It's a motivator. Drop it from your complaint and you help your argument.

Greed is NOT fine. It is a obsession with money, where no matter HOW much money that person has he is not happy and only wants more. That is counterproductive to society, where a greedy individual will destroy countless numbers of lives in order to stuff his already overflowing pockets. If you do in fact think greed to be a good thing, you obviously are not in a position where you have been personally affected by the irrational greed of others.

[bvw]

This is off the thread main topic ...

How bad is the AIDS problem in Inida? I mean $100 mill for AIDS and $12.5 for Hep B? That doesn't seem logical -- isn't Hep the bigger problem?

[FormerLurker]

I wasn't wrong, the data sucks (same company listed with 4 names),

The database only reflects what was input into it. DCM goes by different names and files multiple applications. It's not rocket science there discostu.

Zazona's presentation of it is lacking and makes it seem to suck even more (trimmed important columns that makes apparent duplicates),

Zazona obviously doesn't display ALL of the fields that the DOL database holds. So they did a quick job and felt it more important to make the data available than to make it look pretty. So what?

and their "exact" copy isn't too good because we have yet to get identical results with identical queries

Then you either can't read too well or you are simply saying that without any reason to say it. Look at the date 2/15/01. It shows the same 104 records that we saw in zazona's copy of the OLDER DOL database...

In case you can't figure out how to use the search page, you need to select the text report(View report as comma delimited file) in order to see all 214 records. You will soon find that same 104 records with a start date of 2/15/01 are indeed present. Sheesh.

I wasn't insolent, you're the one that started shouting and cursing and just generally being an ass.

It was a joke, but obviously you are humor impaired as well. Speaking of being an ass, you are certainly making a major one of yourself here.

Now how about YOU admit you're being far too worked up over this and just calm down so this discussion can return to a civil tone.

I'm not the one getting worked up over this. I'm simply stating facts. I can't see why you continue to pound upon this topic, and I HAD attempted to drop it. You began posting YOUR concerns about the LCA database AGAIN, so I of course felt it necessary to address those remarks, as the concerns you raise are unfounded.

[bvw]

Greed is a motivator. Lust is a motivator. Pleasure, comfort, love, narcissism, hunger, fear, jealousy, anger are all motivators. No one argues ending porno by blinding everyone, yet the eyes are used to view it. Is seeing wrong? Neither is greed, itself, wrong. You, in that mypoia-mode you seem to indulge again and again, falsely claim that greed only means its extreme meaning -- that is greed is only overwhelming intrinsically evil greed. Well, that's wrong. Greed, like lust, is a natural human emotion that arises in a person, and is only evil if the person does not properly channel it for good. Used for good, it's still greed.

Anyway, more significant than "why" the law is being broken, is that it is being broken, pervasively and casually. The rampant and common violation of the law trivalizes regard for all law. It's a bad law, we need a diferent law. Say a fixed $25,000 per year labor import fee for non-citizen engineers and programmers who have not applied and been approved for permanent residence. That would equalize things pretty dang quick, while allowing realy really good techies over.