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To: Weirdad; ecomcon
You're both quite naive and shortsighted. How much time have you spent there? And no!! Not in Cancun or Cozumel.

On just one of my trips driving through the entire country (this trip was 3 mos. long) I saw what I always see: a people beaten down by a corrupt gov't that has hobbled freedom since it's inception.

But you'll not find a people warmer, more helpful to strangers, more giving to those who visit, yes, even to some hopelessly arrogant Americans.

You need to travel more. Then again, maybe it’s better if “Ambassadors” like you just stay home, and drink beer out near the outhouse.

8 posted on 11/09/2002 9:59:01 AM PST by InkStone
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To: InkStone
You miss the point. I'm not saying anything about Mexicans that doesn't apply equally to Americans, or anyone else for that matter. Being warm and friendly doesn't get the job done.

In order to restrain evil, you must restrain yourself. Who do you think is offering the bribe money? The warm and friendly participate in that corruption because their self restraint is not strong enough to resist it. It is easier to be pragmatic than to resist.

9 posted on 11/09/2002 1:57:32 PM PST by ecomcon
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To: InkStone; ecomcon; areafiftyone
Here is what ecomcon said, which I thought was well-said, but which you find short sighted:

Mexico is corrupt because the people are corrupt. The people are corrupt because they don't take their Christianity seriously. They therefore have no strong internal system of self restraint. They look to government to do something, forgetting that they are the government. An object lesson on the inability of the state to produce a moral people.

You are obviously passionate in your defense of the Mexican people, but you are very presumptuous, making amazing deductions about our backgrounds. You also miss the point.

I have never been on a "fancy vacation" anywhere south of the US, but I have done mission work in Mexico building and repairing orphanges and traveling to small towns to install small inexpensive (and free to the people) water purification systems which we built ourselves. Many people there are indeed beaten down. Many others have learned to play the game. As a whole the culture there is NOT to be "law abiding;" rather, the only restraint on many (not all) people is what they can get away with without getting caught. When a certain percentage of the population, perhaps 20%, is restrained only by the enforced letter of the law if caught, or else by a corrupt paralegal system (involving illegal power, violence, bribery, etc.) of restraints on behavior, that has massive implications for the whole of society, and is indeed very unfortunate for the 80% of people who want to behave well. In fact, that's a large part of what's beating them down!

I think that the system of government in the US is a direct result of the strong Christian background of the founding fathers who recognized the ultimately corrupt nature of men whether in power or of the masses. They were blessed with a governable people who "took their Christianity seriesly" (sorry) and therefore they were able to institute a self-balancing system that disfavored micromanagement and depended substantially upon a spontaneously well-behaving population restrained by its Christianity.

If too many (even 20%) are not well-behaved, then the people choose law and order over freedom, permit their government excessive power, and create a self-perpetuating system in which those at the top seek to perpetuate their power in order to use it for personal gain.

Therefore although I agree with you that the Mexican people have some amazingly good qualities and that a majority of them are not law breakers, the perpetually dismal state of the country as a whole would improve immensely if they only had a critical mass of people with a mature grounding in the faith that made America, which the Mexican people also espouse, Christianity. They do not have that critical mass.

By the way, there is no arrogance involved either. I think that the perfect storm that created these United States was a demonstration and gift from God. These United States are on the edge of losing their own critical mass of people grounded in faith. As a result we are turning more and more to the centralized micromanagement of We the People in which we give up freedom in favor of law and order. With that, decline is inevitable, and unless it reverses, we also will see what ecomcon characterized as "an object lesson on the inability of the state to produce a moral people."

Peace.

11 posted on 11/10/2002 11:38:32 AM PST by Weirdad
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