I have no problem with anybody being curious. I do have a problem with individuals attempting to insert unsubstantiated information into the conversation and present them as facts or repeating such claims as if they were suddenly gospel. I merely caution you from falling prey to this disinformation campaign.
Been out much in Kosovo in January? Me neither - you can check the EENT (end of evening nautical twilight) on the navy site and check weather reports for Pristina (clouds bring darkness on that much faster) to get the real deal. Please let me know what you find.
Lastly, for the factual portion of the discussion, please provide a link to the KVM protocol and we can discuss the appropriateness of the actions of the KVM teams at Racak that day - their SOPs and yours cannot be assumed to have been similar.
In summation, wonders, there is nothing to show that the 23 men in the ditch were armed at any time, and the evidence suggests they were gunned down where they were found. As they were last seen being led away by Serb police, and some of them managed to survive, this is merely an exercise in futility and attempts to cloud the issue do not reflect well on those blowing the smoke.
What would you say to someone trying to exonerate the Germans for Lidice? What if that person was you?
I hope you understand my position - I have lost any inclination towards suffering this BS any longer. There is a difference between premeditated murder on a personal, face to face level and accidental deaths. Intent has meaning, and the intent of the liars and deniers on these threads is nothing short of contemptible.
Choose your causes wisely, wonders.
So this is what it comes down to. It doesn't matter to you if our facts are right or wrong, it doesn't matter if our arguments are cogent or not, it doesn't matter what inconsistencies we've pointed out in your arguments. All that matters is that we've chosen the "wrong side". I'll hand it to you, then. Using the game rules that you've laid down, you've won, before the game even started.
BS.
“In no time, the first of the Albanians who had got away come back down into the village, those who had managed to hide came out in the open and three KVM vehicles drove into the village. One hour after the police left, night fell.” Chatelot from Le Monde right here at No. 20. The villagers were tromping around as soon as the fighting was done.
Oh, please. Of course they knew the Serbs had left, unless they were blind and deaf. KVM was in the village from about 1530/1600 until about 1800, during which time the villagers were talking with KVM and searching for wounded. So, at least SOME of them were searching during that time. Whatever you or I may think, those are the facts as reported.
Moreover, here's what the HRW report says:
"During the night, the remaining men of the village searched for the wounded, still thinking that the twenty-three men were in the Stimlje police station. One person who participated in the search told Human Rights Watch that they found the bodies on the hill called Kodri e Bebushit, in Albanian, around 4:00 a.m."
Been out much in Kosovo in January? Me neither - you can check the EENT (end of evening nautical twilight) on the navy site and check weather reports for Pristina (clouds bring darkness on that much faster) to get the real deal. Please let me know what you find.
Moot point. I’ve since located multiple sources which attest that KVM was in the village until around 1800, no matter the twilight (thought I’d remembered that, but wasn’t sure I’d remembered correctly until I looked and looked it up to make sure). As I said, they had at least around two hours in that village, and they did in fact spend at least two hours there. Also, villagers told HRW that they searched all through the cold, dark night (see above). Maybe you don't believe THAT part of their story? Maybe you think KVM SHOULD have left at 1600. Whatever you or I think, that's what happened, as far as we know, because that's what's been reported.
In summation, wonders, there is nothing to show that the 23 men in the ditch were armed at any time,…
I have never claimed they were armed, nor have I ever claimed there was “anything new” to show they were not. I have said it is unusual for men of that age in that area to have no guns. And it is. Think about it: lots of shooting going on, banditry, lawlessness, prowling paramilitaries of various stripes, hordes of potentially dangerous stray dogs (maybe even wolves – we had some wolves Sector North, and I know that for sure), plus a longstanding gun culture. Farmers tend to have guns, and for good reason: to protect their livestock and crops from predators. Farmers in the hinterlands of the Balkans, at least nearly all the ones I met, do have guns. It’s been widely reported, even by CNN, that this was very much the case in Kosovo. Hunting is a popular sport among Croat and Serb farmers (they even have hunting clubs with hunting lodges – sorta like ice fishing in Minnesota), but I don’t know about Albanians.
I have also said there could be some reason they had no guns that day -- guns had been confiscated from them at some time by either Serb police or KLA. They may even have hidden their guns to prevent them from being confiscated and/or so Serb police would not take them for combatants.
There is simply no way to know for sure whether they were armed that day or not. The "paraffin test" can't prove they were armed, and, as conducted, the SEM-EDA can't prove they were not. (Please see my post #141 on this thread.) So we have to live with the fact that we can't know with scientific certainty whether or not they were armed.
I do have a problem with individuals attempting to insert unsubstantiated information into the conversation and present them as facts or repeating such claims as if they were suddenly gospel.
Where I have I done this? Please note I give links for all my information, and let people judge for themselves the worthiness of the sources. If you have a problem with any of my sources, just say so.
I merely caution you from falling prey to this disinformation campaign.
Um, maybe you should take your own advice. ;)
...please provide a link to the KVM protocol and we can discuss the appropriateness of the actions of the KVM teams at Racak that day - their SOPs and yours cannot be assumed to have been similar.
As you are probably aware, such a does not, in all likelihood, exist. KVM SOP and what the KVM teams should and should not have been done in Racak on that day can be derived from their mandate, however, and that can be looked at. (BTW, the mandates concerning human rights observing for KVM and the ECMM/OSCE in Croatia post-Flash and Storm and for Kosovo are quite similar.) I’ll pull it together and discuss it in my next post, which may be tomorrow or the day after, considering I’ve got all these baby birds to keep fed and other duties as well. I worked very closely with ECMM/OSCE in Croatia, and our SOPs were quite similar there. No, it doesn’t mean that they were similar to the OSCE’s Kosovo Mission, but the SOPS are basically common sense, anyway, and it doesn’t seem likely they would change sensible SOPs to nonsensical ones. Besides, OSCE, like most institutions of its kind, is quite bureaucratic when it comes to such things as SOP, and we all know such bureaucracies are slow to change.
…and the evidence suggests they were gunned down where they were found.
What evidence suggests this? What about the Finnish ballistics analyses?
"On the basis of ballistic analyses, the victims were shot at a range of less than 30 metres from the trench and then dumped in it."
As they were last seen being led away by Serb police
Yes, according to “witnesses” who are terrified to say anything else (with good reason!), and who have made all sorts of wild claims which were later disproved at autopsy (for example that the 23 men were beaten with planks/poles/firewood and kicked in their faces until they were bloodied by these same “police”).
What would you say to someone trying to exonerate the Germans for Lidice? What if that person was you?
Don’t be ridiculous, Hoplite. Really. I haven’t tried to “exonerate” anyone, unlike you, who seem to have some great vested interest in exonerating the KLA of this crime. I’ve even speculated here on this thread that the Serb police were using these 23 men as human shields. I still consider that a possibility. I’m looking forward to more ICTY testimony concerning Racak, hoping it will shed more light on what really happened.
Now turn your question around on yourself. What if KLA is responsible, and the person trying to exonerate them is you?
There is a difference between premeditated murder on a personal, face to face level and accidental deaths.
Oh, yes there is. Here we’re in complete agreement. I have a feeling that these deaths were not entirely accidental, but that’s just a feeling. Doesn’t count. At this point, I can’t find enough verifiable facts to prove or disprove that feeling.
Intent has meaning, and the intent of the liars and deniers on these threads is nothing short of contemptible.
What have I ever lied about? My mother and my husband both tell me I’m “too honest for my own good.” Granted, sometimes I have trouble remembering dates correctly these days, and I openly admit that and correct it as soon as I realise it. As for denying, I’ve never denied the possibility of Serb responsibility for Racak. You, on the other hand, categorically deny any other possibility. And when it comes to lying and denying, William Walker is very experienced at that, as evidenced by his tenure in Central America.
What I find contemptible is Clinton’s sappy and intentionally manipulative claim that these 23 men were “forced to kneel in the dirt” when there is absolutely nothing to substantiate such. Even HRW’s “witnesses” who are so prone to embellishment never claimed such a thing. But what I find contemptible is neither here nor there.
Choose your causes wisely, wonders.
What cause? My cause is truth. It’s not all that important to me whether Serbs or KLA or space aliens are actually responsible, so long as the truly guilty are identified. Furthermore, it’s not important to me as a means of “justification” for dropping bombs all over Serbia and Kosovo and the horror that bombing unleashed for FRY inhabitants of all ethnicities (not to mention all those folks in other countries whose well-being and livelihoods depended on a navigable Danube). Even if the Serb police did coldly execute those 23 people as you so ardently proclaim, I don’t consider that sufficient justification.
I simply don’t have the emotional attachment to the guilt of the Serb police and innocence of the KLA that you exhibit. I don’t NEED the US/NATO to be “right” and above reproach, as you do, nor do I NEED for the Serb police to be so, as perhaps some others do. I know that neither is above reproach.
Hoplite, have you ever read Erich Fromme’s Escape from Freedom? I would like to know your answer and would appreciate a reply on this question. We’ve always been civil and polite with one another. I respect you for that and hope we can keep it up.