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Reason vs. Religion
The Stranger [Seattle] ^ | 10/24/02 | Sean Nelson

Posted on 10/25/2002 12:14:19 AM PDT by jennyp

The Recent Nightclub Bombings in Bali Illustrate Just What the "War on Terror" Is Really About

On the night of Saturday, October 12--the second anniversary of the suicide bombing of the USS Cole, a year, month, and day after the destruction of the World Trade Center, and mere days after terrorist attacks in Yemen, Kuwait, and the Philippines--two car bombs detonated outside neighboring nightclubs on the island of Bali, triggering a third explosive planted inside, and killing nearly 200 people (the majority of whom were Australian tourists), injuring several others, and redirecting the focus of the war against terror to Indonesia.

Also on the night of Saturday, October 12, the following bands and DJs were playing and spinning at several of Seattle's rock and dance clubs from Re-bar to Rock Bottom: FCS North, Sing-Sing, DJ Greasy, Michiko, Super Furry Animals, Bill Frisell Quintet, the Vells, the Capillaries, the Swains, DJ Che, Redneck Girlfriend, Grunge, Violent Femmes, the Bangs, Better Than Ezra, the Briefs, Tami Hart, the Spitfires, Tullycraft, B-Mello, Cobra High, Randy Schlager, Bobby O, Venus Hum, MC Queen Lucky, Evan Blackstone, and the RC5, among many, many others.

This short list, taken semi-randomly from the pages of The Stranger's music calendar, is designed to illustrate a point that is both facile and essential to reckoning the effects of the Bali bombings. Many of you were at these shows, dancing, smoking, drinking, talking, flirting, kissing, groping, and presumably enjoying yourselves, much like the 180-plus tourists and revelers killed at the Sari Club and Paddy's Irish Pub in Bali. Though no group has come forward to claim responsibility for the bombings, they were almost certainly the work of Muslim radicals launching the latest volley in the war against apostasy.

Whether the attacks turn out to have been the work of al Qaeda or one of the like-purposed, loosely connected, multicellular organizations that function in the region--groups like the Jemaah Islamiyah (an umbrella network that seeks a single Islamic state comprising Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore), the Indonesian Mujahedeen Council (led by the nefarious Abu Bakar Bashir), Laskar Jihad (which waged holy war on Christians in the Spice Islands before mysteriously disbanding two weeks ago), or the Islam Defenders Front (which makes frequent "sweeps" of bars and nightclubs, attacking non-Muslims, and violently guarding against "prostitution and other bad things")--will ultimately prove to be of little consequence. What matters is that the forces of Islamic fascism have struck again, in a characteristically cowardly, murderous, and yes, blasphemous fashion that must register as an affront to every living human with even a passing interest in freedom.

The facile part: It could have happened here, at any club in Seattle. It's a ludicrous thought, of course--at least as ludicrous as the thought of shutting the Space Needle down on New Year's Eve because some crazy terrorist was arrested at the Canadian border--but that doesn't make it any less true. That doesn't mean we should be looking over our shoulders and under our chairs every time we go to a show. It simply means that it could happen anywhere, because anywhere is exactly where rabid Islamists can find evidence of blasphemy against their precious, imaginary god.

Which brings us to the essential part: The Bali bombings were not an attack against Bali; they were an attack against humankind. In all the jawflap about the whys and wherefores of the multiple conflicts currently dotting our collective radar screen--the war against terror, the war on Iraq, the coming holy war, et al.--it seems worth restating (at the risk of sounding pious) that the war against basic human liberty, waged not by us but on us, is at the heart of the matter. Discourse has justifiably, necessarily turned to complexities of strategy, diplomacy, and consequences. The moral truth, however, remains agonizingly basic. We are still dealing with a small but indefatigable contingent of radicalized, militant absolutists who believe that every living being is accountable to the stricture of Shari'a, under penalty of death. As Salman Rushdie wrote, in an oft-cited Washington Post editorial, the fundamentalist faction is against, "to offer a brief list, freedom of speech, a multi-party political system, universal adult suffrage, accountable government, Jews, homosexuals, women's rights, pluralism, secularism, short skirts, dancing, beardlessness, evolution theory, sex." If these were fictional villains, you'd call them hyperbolic, not believable. But they aren't fictional. Their code would be laughable if it weren't so aggressively despicable.

As headlines about Bali cross-fade into news of North Korean nukes, and there are further debates about the finer points of Iraqi de- and restabilization, it's crucial to remember that there is, in fact, a very real enemy, with a very real will, and the very real power of delusional self-righteousness. How to remember? Consider the scene of the attacks (as reported by various Australian and European news sources):

It's a typical hot, sweaty, drunken, lascivious Saturday night. People, primarily young Aussie tourists from Melbourne, Geelong, Perth, and Adelaide, are crammed into the clubs, mixing it up, spilling out into the street. Rock band noises mix with techno music and innumerable voices as latecomers clamor to squeeze inside. Just after 11:00 p.m., a car bomb explodes outside of Paddy's, followed a few seconds later by a second blast that smashes the façade of the Sari Club and leaves a hole in the street a meter deep and 10 meters across. The second bomb is strong enough to damage buildings miles away. All at once, everything's on fire. People are incinerated. Cars go up in flames. Televisions explode. Ceilings collapse, trapping those still inside. Screams. Blistered, charred flesh. Disembodied limbs. Mangled bodies. Victims covered in blood. Inferno.

Now transpose this horrible, fiery mass murder from the seedy, alien lushness of Bali to, say, Pioneer Square, where clubs and bars are lined up in the same teeming proximity as the Sari and Paddy's in the "raunchy" Jalan Legian district, the busiest strip of nightlife in Kuta Beach. Imagine a car blowing up outside the Central Saloon and another, across the street at the New Orleans. Again, it seems too simple an equation, but the fact remains that the victims were not targeted at random, or for merely political purposes. They were doing exactly what any of us might be doing on any night of the week: exercising a liberty so deeply offensive to religious believers as to constitute blasphemy. And the punishment for blasphemy is death.

There is an ongoing lie in the official governmental position on the war against terror, which bends over backwards to assure us that, in the words of our president, "we don't view this as a war of religion in any way, shape, or form." Clearly, in every sense, this is a war of religion, whether it's declared as such or not. And if it isn't, then it certainly should be. Not a war of one religion against another, but of reason against religion--against any belief system that takes its mandate from an invisible spiritual entity and endows its followers with the right to murder or subjugate anyone who fails to come to the same conclusion. This is the war our enemies are fighting. To pretend we're fighting any other--or worse, that this war is somehow not worth fighting, on all fronts--is to dishonor the innocent dead.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; islam; religion; terrorism
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To: general_re
Schlick? What about Comte?
201 posted on 10/27/2002 10:05:42 PM PST by beckett
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To: Phaedrus
Thank you phaedrus. Rare form? Well I don't know. It looked kind of paltry to me on re-reading. But we trudge along and think our thoughts anew another day.
202 posted on 10/27/2002 10:09:55 PM PST by beckett
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To: beckett
I think you have to differentiate between the positivism of Comte and the logical positivism of Schlick, Carnap, and a whole gang of others. Comte's positivism was certainly empirical, but logical positivism is a much more rigorous and formal system of logic and language than Comte's (and Ernst Mach's) positivism. It's probably fair to think of logical positivism as an offshoot of Comte, but it also relies heavily on the development of formal logic in the late 19'th and early 20'th centuries, particularly the work of Frege, Russell, Peano, and Wittgenstein - which, of course, Comte wasn't around to see ;)
203 posted on 10/27/2002 10:25:50 PM PST by general_re
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To: general_re
You mean the Vienna Circle --- ok. Yeah I guess they changed the name from positivism to logical positivism, as I recall.
204 posted on 10/27/2002 10:35:07 PM PST by beckett
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To: beckett
Exactly so - Schlick and Carnap in Vienna, and Hans Reichenbach and Kurt Grelling in Berlin (and many others, of course). Schlick sort of started it, and Carnap did a great deal of work towards rigorously and formally explicating and deriving the whole thing - not surprising, since Carnap studied under Gottlob Frege, who is, in many ways, the founder of modern formal logic.

It also ended up having a great deal of influence here in the US, also - a great many of the positivists fled the Nazis in the 30's and set up shop over here, particularly Herbert Feigl and whatshisname, something Frank. Philip Frank?

Something like that ;)

205 posted on 10/27/2002 10:45:28 PM PST by general_re
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To: jennyp
They were doing exactly what any of us might be doing on any night of the week: exercising a liberty so deeply offensive to religious believers as to constitute blasphemy. And the punishment for blasphemy is death.

Religious believers, eh? Not certain radical Muslims, but religious believers.

Now, as it happens, I am a religious believer. In fact, you could call me a fundamentalist. Not only do I not regard partying as blasphemous, I do it myself; the above, therefore, is delusional BS at best, and deliberate, slanderous hate propaganda at worst. Considering the number of those killed, it's a near-certainty that there were religious believers among them. Disrespect for the dead, anyone?

But suppose he were right. Suppose I and every other religious believer were intent on killing everyone who drank, danced, or associated with unveiled women. What would you do with us? If anyone thinks he's right, answer the question: what do you want to do about me?

206 posted on 10/27/2002 11:45:22 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: beckett
To be honest though, it wasn't atheism which drove them to do what they did; rather it was politics. It is religion which drives the Moslems to slaughter innocents or Christians to blow up abortion clinics.
207 posted on 10/28/2002 1:49:40 AM PST by Junior
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To: PatrickHenry
I think of numbers as nothing but abstractions.

The person you are replying to qualifies their statement by saying that in mathematics numbers exist independently of any physical existence. Mathematics is a human contrivance, so the statement is correct in that framework. The ultimate question is philosophical -- do abstractions exist independent of physical existence? Or to phrase it another way -- is there really a distinction between the physical and non-physical?

208 posted on 10/28/2002 2:32:08 AM PST by Moonman62
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To: donh
But believing an event occured, no matter how ardently, isn't the same as proving it.

Except that you have to prove it to yourself. Otherwise, you could just chalk it up to tequila.

209 posted on 10/28/2002 5:59:05 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: Moonman62
The person you are replying to qualifies their statement by saying that in mathematics numbers exist independently of any physical existence.

I can go with that. If it's understood to mean that 1+1=2, regardless of context.

The ultimate question is philosophical -- do abstractions exist independent of physical existence? Or to phrase it another way -- is there really a distinction between the physical and non-physical?

I think you mean "a distinction between the physical real and non-physical non-real?" The answer is self-evident. Unless one is a deranged subjectivist who feels that his private imaginings are no different than objective reality.

210 posted on 10/28/2002 6:51:08 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Alamo-Girl
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. [John 17]

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible....

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made...." [Nicene Creed]

"Who lives in love lives in God and God in him." [St. Augustine]

Alamo-Girl, you wrote: "I'll never forget the first time I spiritually read and therefore understood a phrase out of Hebrews where Christ is described as the express image of His [the Father's] person."

John, too, refers to Christ as the pleroma, as revealing in His person the very fullness of God the Father....

IMHO, to read the scriptures spiritually is to not read them literally. Francis Schaeffer had the most marvelous saying, that, in the Holy Scriptures, God speaks to us truly, but not exhaustively. There is always more there than meets the eye which, by the grace of the Holy Spirit that "proceeds from the Father and the Son," unfolds to our understanding by means of spiritual vision.

Also IMHO, people who don't read the Bible don't know what they're missing. Which is God revealing to us a true (but not exhaustive) account of Himself -- and also a true (but not exhaustive) account of man, society, and nature.

In short, IMHO the Holy Scriptures are all about the community of being in this world and the next, which has Christ as its head for the purpose of reconciling us to, and leading us to, the Father. The great subject of the Bible is Divine Love.

Thank you so much, Alamo-Girl, for your beautiful reply.

211 posted on 10/28/2002 7:41:55 AM PST by betty boop
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To: AppyPappy
Then why haven't they built a hospital?

I don't know. Why don't you ask them?

212 posted on 10/28/2002 7:52:19 AM PST by stanz
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To: stanz
Because they can't talk.
213 posted on 10/28/2002 7:58:44 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much, betty boop! Your replies are brimming with wisdom - informative and uplifting!

I agree fully that God speaks through His Word, truly but not exhaustively. Like a parable, the Word cannot be mentally understood - that's why I coin the phrase hidden in plain view to describe it.

Certainly, Divine Love is the great subject of the Bible. I think of the Word as the method God choose to reveal Himself to His own - and Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh (John 1:14)

214 posted on 10/28/2002 7:59:57 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: AppyPappy
Archaeologists tell us that things get invented or discovered when there is a need for it.Primitive tribes whose ecosystems remained the same for hundred of years had no selective pressures on them and so, they had no need of making changes. Their tribal customs, no need for written language and other cultural practices remained exactly as they were for ages.
It is the same for animals. Chimps in the wild do not need hospitals. Humans need them.
215 posted on 10/28/2002 8:42:41 AM PST by stanz
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To: betty boop
I will respond later tonight if my daughter relinquishes the computer. I am in a busy law office right now and cannot get back to you today.
216 posted on 10/28/2002 8:45:44 AM PST by stanz
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To: stanz
stanz, no hurry! I look forward to hearing from you when you have an opportunity to write again.
217 posted on 10/28/2002 8:53:58 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl
Like a parable, the Word cannot be mentally understood - that's why I coin the phrase hidden in plain view to describe it.

If has often seemed to me that the hardest things to see are the most obvious ones! Thus the best way to "hide" something it to put it right out there in plain view.... We'll see it when the Spirit moves us to see it.

I think it helps to pray for grace and light when we "commune" with the Bible. :^)

Thank you, A-G!

218 posted on 10/28/2002 9:06:07 AM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
I think it helps to pray for grace and light when we "commune" with the Bible.

Amen to that!

Thank you so much for your reply!

219 posted on 10/28/2002 9:28:14 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: stanz
Chimps in the wild do not need hospitals.

So chimps don't get sick? OK.

220 posted on 10/28/2002 9:42:56 AM PST by AppyPappy
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